Heather Urquhart on overcoming fear of failure

[00:00:00] Sarah: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organizations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me in hearing from our brilliant guests.

[00:00:29] Our guest in this episode combines creativity, spontaneity, and fun with a deep intuition about human nature and our attitudes to risk. Heather Urquhart is an improviser, a talented actor and musician. She uses her skills not only to entertain, but also to open up people's thinking, their willingness to try new things, to develop ideas, and to get comfortable with mistakes.

[00:00:54] Heather is a regular improv actor in Showstoppers, the West End improvised musical and runs her own [00:01:00] company called, and also improv, leading improv workshops and classes. She works with teams and leaders in organizations, bringing them a completely different way of exploring risk, trust, control, and creativity, and to have fun at the same time, she's joined us at our Speak to the Human Event in Cambridge twice, which has been a fantastic addition to our program.

[00:01:22] It was great in this podcast to hear Heather's thoughts too on how improvisers learn to tune in so closely to their fellow performers, as well as adapting to different team or leader roles in the moment. That's something we can all learn from that kind of collaboration. I love this conversation and I'm sure you will too.

[00:01:39] As always, please do send me your feedback and ideas for future guests.

[00:01:50] Hi Heather. I'm so pleased to have you joining us as a guest on Speak to the Human, um, for a start. It's always just lovely to see you and I know we always find [00:02:00] a lot to chat about. But also you've brought so much fun and joy to our in-person, speak to the human event, um, the couple of times that you've been with us.

[00:02:09] So, um, it would be really good to hear more about the work that you do. So thank you for joining us today.

[00:02:15] Heather: I am delighted to be here. And it's also so nice to do an event when we like speak to the human and we, we were there to bring joy. Because some events that I do, which I'll talk about soon, I bring terror.

[00:02:27] Um, so, but with, with yours, people are always happy to see me and have a great time. Absolutely. That's wonderful.

[00:02:33] Sarah: So let's start with a bit of background about what you do, which is fascinating and I can't wait to have you share it.

[00:02:41] Heather: Thank you. Yes. So I'm an improviser and, um, actually saying this to someone the other day, that I know that that is true because when my children were born and you had to put what your profession was on the birth certificate.

[00:02:52] I wrote improvisers, so that's definitely true now because up to that point I've sometimes written, I'm a trainer, I've sometimes written, I'm a performer, [00:03:00] you know, a teacher, an actress, a comedian. I'm, I've never known how to define it, but these days I'm kind of very comfortable to say, well, I know my industry.

[00:03:08] What I do is improvising. And sometimes that is coming to events like Speech to the Human and improvising for people in that case through music, sort of literally singing the day back to people and capturing that through improvising. The mood in the room with music, but it gets a lot more serious when we do training on improvisational skills because obviously the skills of listening and adapting and responding to what's in front of you are hugely important skills for basically any human, hence speak to the human being very relevant.

[00:03:39] So, yeah, it encompasses a wide variety of things, but this, um, improvisation is always at the heart of it. So these days I feel very comfortable going, I'm an improviser. Letting the rest unfold.

[00:03:52] Sarah: Awesome. So tell us how and when you improvise, uh, what do you actually do?

[00:03:58] Heather: Oh, yeah, that's a good point. So I [00:04:00] have a company, I have a company of my own called and also improv.

[00:04:03] Um, and we're based down in Brighton. We run lots of improvisation classes for adults and shows. And we do a lot of work with, um, organizations, companies and charities in which we go in and we work with them on these improvisational skills. And then in my performer life, I'm in, um, a musical called Showstopper, the improvised musical, which is in the West End where we do a, a full two act musical on a West End stage.

[00:04:28] It just happens to all be made up on the spot. And I'm also improvised with, um, sometimes with the comedy store players, with various shows. You know, I've done improvised concept albums, um, you name it, I've improvised it basically. But, um, yeah, I guess music is my specialty. But, um, lots of. Theater and comedy is, uh, what I also do on the scale.

[00:04:50] Sarah: It's so, it's been so awesome seeing what you do in person and is absolutely mind blowing, I think, to all of us that [00:05:00] have never tried to do anything similar. Uh, it is just how you are able to respond in the moment and to, um, produce something that is really impressive as a performance. Live with no preparation is, uh, it's just incredible.

[00:05:18] And I think it's been really kind of eye-opening and surprising and wonderful to see it in person and the, the energy that it brings because everyone is responding to

[00:05:28] Heather: it. It's really a delightful gift to be able to give to people, particularly the musical stuff. Um, I know the showstopper there, there have been so many conspiracy theories over the years.

[00:05:37] Like, do you have. People with ear pieces feeding you the lines of what to say, or do you have plants and the audience tell you what you're going to be doing? So it looks like it's improvised, but actually you've written it before and you know all of them are like. It would be so much harder to do that.

[00:05:54] And also if we wrote it, don't you think we'd make it a bit better than what we just did? I love it.

[00:05:59] Sarah: [00:06:00] I think, do you know what, I feel like that's a general point about conspiracy theories is that if that was true, it would be so much harder and would've taken so much thinking in organization than it's like inconceivable.

[00:06:11] Heather: Yeah. I mean, I, in fact, one time in Brighton we had a, a reviewer come and review the show and they said it was so, um. Great how they managed to like weave their pre-prepared sketches into the shows that they did. And it was quite a positive review, but it was inaccurate. So we wrote to the paper and we said, look, I promise you it's improvised.

[00:06:32] How about you bring the same reviewer about and they can like hand us a sort of sealed gold envelope with the title of this musical that they want us to do, um, and then we'll do it, you know, just sort of really, really prove that it's improvised. And the woman came, she gave us the title, we did the musical, and then she wrote another review.

[00:06:47] So it was so impressive how they managed to weave my title. That they've preplan. And I was like, what? I mean, I guess it's a, it's a compliment, right? Because it looks like it's slick, but it, I it genuinely is completely [00:07:00] improvised completely and people sometimes have trouble believing that.

[00:07:03] Sarah: So how on earth did you get into this and how do you develop the skills to be that spontaneously creative?

[00:07:10] I think

[00:07:11] Heather: people come to it from a variety of different backgrounds. For me it was the performance background. So I was new as a bit of a show off. Um, so I did do like new theater and stuff like that. And then I went to university to study physical theater because I'd done a lot of theater stuff and I, I felt very in my head and not in my body and I thought I'd like to learn a bit more about physical theater and it was quite a new thing at the time.

[00:07:37] So I went to do the course and, um, realized that everybody else there was a dancer who wanted to be better at acting. And I was the only person that was an actor that wanted to be better with my body. And the upshot of this was I was the worst person in the class by a country mile because I couldn't, just, couldn't keep up.

[00:07:58] You know, we do all these routines [00:08:00] and I'd end up like way behind, facing in the wrong direction. I'd always try and do these really serious pieces and my, my teachers kept saying to me like, you're, you're not, you're a clown. You know? Stop. Stop trying serious. And I found it really disheartening. But then this, um, uh, Kevin Thomason came in who still runs a company called Kapa Theater, and he taught us, you know, the beginnings of improvisation, like a module in it.

[00:08:26] And I was like, this is it. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. Because it was all about embracing the accidents and making a feature of who you are and being spontaneous and yeah, just. Embracing those mistakes and kind of making them the feature really, which I just love as a message for humanity.

[00:08:44] And so I loved it so much that I actually ended up working with that theater company. And then kind of the rest is history really. But I think the thing that's quite nice is that at the time I wanted to do serious work and people kept saying, no, you know, you're, you're an idiot. You need to do funny stuff.

[00:08:58] And I did enjoy doing that for many [00:09:00] years, but it's kind of come full circle now, which is sort of using the humor and the fun for. More serious projects, you know, to help people in their working lives or different community groups that need a bit of that stuff or skills. Yeah. So I, I just love it.

[00:09:14] Sarah: That's awesome.

[00:09:15] I, I wanna pick that up about, um, mistakes. That's gonna be a strand that we look at over the next year in, in the live in person speech to the human event around, uh, a theme that's sort of permission to fail and how we. Allow people to make mistakes, which I think are, is critical for innovation. It's critical for, you know, any kind of creative thinking, um, to help people get the better of themselves.

[00:09:47] But I think that it's something that we are fearful of, that organizations are fearful of, and that culturally we think is somehow wrong. What have you learned about that kind of permission [00:10:00] to fail and, um, how we could, you know, what do you notice about human behavior and your audience members and the willingness to make mistakes, um, that you think we could all kind of benefit from, or that, or that you riff off when you are with people?

[00:10:20] Heather: Yeah, I mean. It's, it's so, so important, particularly for improvisation, but I think for humans that kind of willingness to fail. And I think what we say is that we don't want to fail, but we don't want the fear of failure to get in the way of us taking risks and shooting for the moon and doing things like that.

[00:10:38] And certainly with improv, you know, there's a, there's an audience watching. If you stopped to worry about what people might think about the thing that's about to come outta your mouth, you know, you wouldn't have a show and in fact you would fail in the fear of failing. So we're very sort of taking risks and with improvisation, you know, if they, if they succeed, they're fun, if they fail, they're almost better actually because the mistakes turn [00:11:00] into the opportunities and the gold.

[00:11:01] And I think, you know, there's lots of examples in business aren't there, of when someone was going for one thing and let the accident happen, the, the happy accident became the discovery. And you can see that happening a lot in real time on stage. And actually in fact, we find the feedback from our shows is better when.

[00:11:18] It's gone more wrong 'cause they can see us getting into trouble and getting out of it, as opposed to if everything's totally perfect and we're completely in control the whole time, it's less thrilling and entertaining for an audience. So I think, um, for organizations and individuals to just allow yourself to get into trouble and trust that you can get out of it, it's so, so important.

[00:11:40] And I, when I've worked with organizations, the sort of. Risk Averseness gets greater, the higher up you go in the organization. And it's so counterintuitive to me. 'cause again, you look at all the most amazing leaders and they have been the ones that have kind of dived into [00:12:00] disruptive, risky behavior and known that they're expert enough at it and you know that, that they can improvise really.

[00:12:06] But I think organizations that fail that really fail are the ones that are not willing to fail. Because they get so rigid and safe and they're not willing to make those mistakes. And it even surprises me now actually how, you know, if I teach improv, that's improv 1 0 1 is like, let's get comfortable with messing up and making mistakes and celebrating mistakes.

[00:12:27] But when I go and do work, NHS consultants

[00:12:31] Sarah: mm-hmm.

[00:12:32] Heather: Are very, very bad at, um, listening.

[00:12:36] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:12:37] Heather: Because I think there is a fear of. Um, losing control. And I think that when you're higher up, you, you feel that you must control everything and therefore you can't make mistakes. And of course, you know, you can't make a mistake on operating table.

[00:12:50] But then that bleeds over into people's communication styles and the way they talk to people, that they can't be flexible and they can't lose control. And, and people miss a lot, I think, by not [00:13:00] listening and not picking up on cue and what's in front of them. And in fact, whenever we have done medical training.

[00:13:06] It's been, and there's been a big disaster. It's been, it's been a big disaster. Not for us, sorry, that we've been brought in because something bad has happened. It's because of a lack of listening and a lack of responding to what's unfolding in the moment in front of them, rather than, you know, pushing through with protocol and what they think they should do basically.

[00:13:27] So it's really, it's really fascinating.

[00:13:29] Sarah: It is absolutely fascinating and I think that, um, balance that sort of equation. Like between risk and control is just, there's so much to that. And I like what you said, um, upfront there about risk, because I think there probably is no such thing as avoidance of risk.

[00:13:48] If we try too hard to avoid risk, then we are kind of avoiding the innovation that it takes to survive. And the, you know, the, the, the willingness to change, which has [00:14:00] to happen. So you, if you try to control everything too tightly, there's a greater risk because you're not able to respond a

[00:14:09] Heather: hundred percent.

[00:14:10] Sarah: Um, it'd be great to hear how you, you have, through the work that you do, helped people to maybe let go of control a little bit. Maybe think about willingness to take risks. How do you see that happening in front of you?

[00:14:27] Heather: I think, um. Because we, we work with such a wide variety of sectors. It's different for different people.

[00:14:36] So I think people with very, um, high pressure, high consequence jobs. So again, you know, um, surgeons or engineers we worked on, um. I need to remember the name of the company, but they're the ones with a big nuclear reactor. Mm-hmm. In the middle of the country. You know the one that's like hotter than the sun, what they're called the UK Atomic [00:15:00] Energy Authority.

[00:15:00] There we go. So we went there to work with their engineers, and obviously if you're talking to them about risk, like the consequences of that is quite catastrophic actually. So in some ways they're quite cynical about a bunch of improvisers coming in and saying, don't tell me to be okay with making mistakes and risks, because if I do, then.

[00:15:19] As you say, there's degrees to it. Because actually if you're not noticing, um, the relationship with your fellow engineers or being open to possibilities that what you thought was true is not true, and obviously they're engineers, they rigorous rigorously test everything, but there's the thinking around being open to possibilities that I think can get a bit rigid.

[00:15:40] Um, so in that case, I would say it's about, yes, we understand that there's actual consequences to risk, but thinking about. Where you can allow yourself to make mistakes and be changed, as you say, I think with other people when it's their job is around putting themself out there, I guess is when it feels like a much more [00:16:00] personal risk of like if I say this idea, if I'm in a meeting and I say this thing that I think might be stupid or you know, people might gasp or might just ignore, you know, that's the worst thing, isn't it?

[00:16:11] It's so bad that no one listens to me. That's the thing that I think I have the most direct experience of changing the most for people is getting them to say that, because what's the worst that can happen?

[00:16:24] Sarah: Mm.

[00:16:24] Heather: But also if you, if you put this language of improvisation into an organization, I think you change the culture so that a, people are more willing to speak up and say the thing that they want to say.

[00:16:35] Then the people around them are more receptive because they're in a much more listening space and they're more willing to be changed and people are willing to take the risk of saying that thing, and that just makes a really great culture. I think apart from maybe more cool stuff will happen, you'll be more productive and innovative.

[00:16:53] I think it also is just a nicer working environment. Right. When you feel like people take risks, they say things, they, [00:17:00] they're vulnerable, they say the thing. People will take that on board. They'll be vulnerable by possibly changing the plan. Particularly people in a leadership position. You know, if they're pushing a big agenda and a junior person says, what about this?

[00:17:13] I think it's so strong for somebody to say, yes, that's a fantastic idea, you know, and we're gonna do that because they're willing to be changed by the information in front of them, you know? So I get nerdy about this, as you can probably tell.

[00:17:27] Sarah: I can, but it's great and I completely agree, and I think that willingness.

[00:17:32] To be vulnerable. The willingness to make mistakes and have them visible. It's so healthy because if we are pretending all the time that we can tightly control everything, it's, you know, it's just not encouraging people to be open to ideas, to communicate better, to be themselves. It's just a very sort of constrained existence if we're like that.

[00:17:53] And I, I think that nurturing cultures where we. Like e enable [00:18:00] people to feel comfortable expressing themselves, voicing an idea, saying, I don't think I agree with that and not feeling too knocked down if somebody says, I hear you, but I'm not gonna change anything because that's okay. Because sometimes I.

[00:18:14] You take things in a different direction and sometimes you'll decide not to.

[00:18:18] Heather: Yeah, exactly. And like one of the main quotes we use for improv is listening is the willingness to be changed. It's not. Listening is changing, it's the willingness to be changed. It's like actually being, as you say, a hundred percent honest and receptive.

[00:18:32] I think the problem is when people say all this stuff, particularly people in a position of sort, yes, yes, absolutely. We wanna do ideas and we wanna. And they'll get us in and they'll say, we're gonna get all our people to do the this improvisation, but we are not gonna do it ourselves because we don't need to.

[00:18:49] But actually, you know, they're, they're scared and I completely get that. Um, but I think it's like, can the organization really live it on every level is what I'm interested in [00:19:00] when I go in. As an outsider,

[00:19:02] Sarah: I think you've, you've hit the nail on the head. I mean, fear is such a, a driver of this behavior, isn't it?

[00:19:08] Tell us a little bit because it's fun about the techniques that you use in an improv class or workshop or when you're performing to, um, involve people and help them to. Let go of the fear a little bit or to let go of the control or to take a little bit more of a risk. What do you actually do to, to open people up a bit?

[00:19:30] Heather: What do we physically actually do? Yes. I mean, we play a lot of games. Mm-hmm. We do a lot of laughing. Um, I think as, as I say, we do. I get people in the first instance to genuinely encourage celebration of failure. So, you know, in life you, if you didn't get a project or something, you know, you burned your dinner, probably wouldn't cheer but an improv, you know, if we say a silly thing or we kind of fail the game, we will literally encourage people to cheer and say, rah, just to notice that moment of failure in themselves [00:20:00] and reset their relationship with it.

[00:20:02] Because I think, you know, normally when we fail, we literally become tense. Don't, when we get smaller, we get people to like literally own it. By saying hooray in a variety of context and just notice that moment. Uh, we work a lot with this idea of abundance. So, you know, there are many, many ideas. You don't have to have the perfect idea first.

[00:20:19] It's all about, um, divergent thinking and just throwing a lot of stuff out there. You know, it doesn't have to be perfect. I think this is. It's the thing isn't there? Ideas are cheap, but it's the execution that is the problem. Like some big business person said, but we say ideas are cheap. Isn't that great?

[00:20:35] Yeah. But you know, they don't have to be good. Like there's a million and, and a lot of the time we find that if I ask someone to think of something, it's not that they haven't thought of the thing, they just have edited themselves from saying it. You know, if I said think of a room in a house now, probably one has already popped into your mind.

[00:20:55] If I ask people in a room, uh, you know, full of their peers and say, can someone tell me a [00:21:00] room that you might find in a house? Everyone will have thought of one, but they won't be willing to say it because they're worried that it wasn't a good enough room in a house that they thought of. You know, it's a bad example.

[00:21:08] But, so it's about getting people to get out of their own way, know that they're full of ideas and they just have to put them out there and not edit them, and not worry about whether they're good. That comes later. And then the final thing, I guess it's sort of absolutely core to what we teach, is this idea of Yes.

[00:21:24] And um, if you know anyone that's done an improv class, they'll say, oh yes. And it's all about yes. And which is about accept and build. And that's really about the teamwork, the collaborative element, which is if you say something to me, I'm gonna say a hundred percent yes to that idea. And see what I can do to build on it rather than see what I can do to critique it.

[00:21:43] We will have people have a literal conversation where, you know, in fact, can you do it right now? Can you give me a, an example of something that you'd quite like to do today after we finish recording this podcast?

[00:21:56] Sarah: Going for a walk or run this afternoon and I hope I'm not gonna get too cold. [00:22:00]

[00:22:00] Heather: Yes. And um, I would like to do the same thing, but I've got these special like thermal, um, sports running wear so that, um, I can go outside, do running and walking and not get cold.

[00:22:11] And then if we continue, you'd say yes and then build on the thing that I said so that we're kind of spinning the idea up and seeing where we can get from it rather than if you, in fact, can you give me the same, uh, sentence? Would you mind doing that?

[00:22:24] Sarah: Yes. I'm gonna go for, uh, run a walk this afternoon.

[00:22:28] Hope I don't get too cold.

[00:22:30] Heather: But it's really cold, isn't it? Do you think? You think that's a good idea? You might get too cold if you go out like that.

[00:22:37] Sarah: That's such a different feeling. You've like, shut me down, haven't you? Yeah, totally. And actually, even though.

[00:22:43] Heather: What I said the second time was coming from a place of genuine and concern.

[00:22:46] Yeah. Like empathy. I don't, I don't wanna do that. It's too cold out there. That would be my worst nightmare. It's, yeah, it's not running with literally ha ha running with the idea of running. And so again, if you're, you can imagine if you're in a, in [00:23:00] innovation team or a meeting where it is about, like, we're at the beginning of a project and we're just in the exploration stage.

[00:23:07] Everyone's coming with their own agenda and there's a lot of yes, but happening in a room and logistics and like, yeah, but we don't have the money. But yeah, that's not possible. And we are really encouraging people in teams to be yes and the hell out of it at the beginning, you know, try and support each other and again, not make them feel like it's a silly idea and going, well what if now, what if we did do this?

[00:23:28] How would we make that possible? And so. Improv, we're doing that with games and scenes, but the, the transferrable skill is hopefully like that attitude of, yeah, what if it was possible, what would that look like? And yes, and, and building on ideas.

[00:23:42] Sarah: One of the things I love about that is that I think we, um, culturally we tend to think that there's such a thing as individual genius.

[00:23:50] You know, we think of Newton or Einstein or Shakespeare would think, or these were amazing people that did something in isolation [00:24:00] effectively that. Was individual genius. And actually it's never true. They've always built on preexisting ideas or every, everybody like that that you could call out. It's about development of what's already known or finding something that is already known and tweaking it or finding what's not quite working with it and building on it.

[00:24:23] And that's how we develop as humans. So this idea that somehow we have to do something. Entirely new and perfect that we've created ourselves, I think is false.

[00:24:35] Heather: I totally agree, and I think, again, if you go to watch a, an improvisation show, which I'd very much recommend anyone listening to this pod. It doesn't have to be mine, any improv show's.

[00:24:44] Great. Um, 'cause I think actually you learn a lot by watching that process happening live in front of your eyes, watching a team of people do that. If it goes brilliantly, well, you'll see lots of people. Um, you'll see examples of lots of people. Saying yes to ideas, [00:25:00] running with them, see how far they can take them.

[00:25:02] But actually, I'd say even if you go to see an improv show, a group that are less experienced, if you look at those moments that feel a little bit sticky, I, I wouldn't say are bad or don't work because I actually don't believe in that. But if you look at the moments that feel less energized or feel a bit more confused, or you know, are less enjoyable for both the players and everyone else in the room, it's often because you'll see a little bit of.

[00:25:22] But creeping and or blocking is what we, we call it. That's the technical turn. Improv. There was some blocking happening there.

[00:25:29] Sarah: Interesting. So when you've been to the event, you've been with, um, you've had Ali and Joe with you. Mm-hmm. Yes. And you've worked as a trio and it's just, it's amazing to see the three of you working together because you have this chemistry and this interaction that is so formed and tight.

[00:25:47] And I'm interested in how you. Develop that and how you respond, learn to respond to each other and be that tuned in that you can kind of read what each other's going to do so that you, you come [00:26:00] together with something that is created together spontaneously when you can't sort of mind read. It's almost like you can mind read 'cause you can see what the other person is about to do.

[00:26:10] But I, I'm interested in how you develop that kind of, uh,

[00:26:13] Heather: yeah, I think, um. I think that's why the conspiracy, conspiracy theories come in. 'cause people go, how are you doing that? And um, Joe Samuel, who's the musician, he, he always says, you know, people ask if there's a trick. And he's like, well, the trick is right in front of your eyes.

[00:26:30] 'cause what we are doing is we are just tuning in. We're just really tuning into each other. We're really, really looking for the cues. The tiniest lift of an eyebrow or you know, the move of a shoulder or an in-breath, like, oh, they're about to do the next thing. Or equally, and I think this is the thing that you see less is the, the tiny moments of self-doubt, because it's not, it's not quite self doubt.

[00:26:52] It's not quite the word, but like, I'm running out now 'cause the other person knows. Right. Okay. Now it's my turn to step in and my colleague [00:27:00] Pippa, who I'm in showstoppers with, she has a really nice way of putting it, which is like. You have to be willing to be the lead, the star, or the chorus every time you step on stage.

[00:27:10] And I think that's the same for teams, which is it. You don't quite know what it's gonna look like before you step out there. 'cause it might be the day when it's like, oh, you know, everyone's having a bad day. Someone's cat died, they've got a cold. I'm, I've gotta step in. Other days it might be like, normally I'm a very extroverted, confident person, but today my job as a really great teammate and colleague is to actually step out and give the space for someone else to do it.

[00:27:36] So I think what we are doing is going, where are the impulses? Where are the ideas? You know, we get the suggestions from the audience in, in the case of speech to the humans. So obviously one of the three of us is gonna have that initial spark of like, I've got something. Obviously that can't last forever.

[00:27:52] So then it's like, okay, I can see that, that well A yes. And you know, Ali says, well that's brilliant. What can I add to that? How can I, yes. And that, and [00:28:00] of course we're, yes, anding the audience because we're hearing what they're excited by and then trying to sort of feed it back to them. And I think that's why we do.

[00:28:08] Obviously anyone that hasn't seen us do this kind of work, but we'll interview the person in the audience. So they might give us a suggestion, but then we'll, we'll try and tease out a little bit more like, okay, you know, what's that really about? And you know, maybe understand why that was the thing that they suggested.

[00:28:21] Because it's of often quite a lot of work that people suggest things and they don't quite know why they have, but it's normally 'cause it means something to them, right? 'cause it's got some sort of personal significance or relevance for them. So it's like really listening, but listening beyond. For the, what's this really about?

[00:28:38] I think, and again, when we're working with each other, it's like, I think it's just noticing really, isn't it? Yeah. It's not very a sexy answer, but

[00:28:45] Sarah: No, I love it. You've, you've, um, gone into various different areas there that are all really interesting and, and valuable. I love the part about teamwork because it's like you are doing the ultimate teamwork where that willingness [00:29:00] to let go of your own.

[00:29:02] Your own role, your own ego, um, how you might be worried that other people are perceiving you, um, that you know, it is quite a natural, normal way that people think and, and find hard to put aside, but the willingness to be not your, not you in isolation, but you as part of a team and play, whatever role in that team is needed at that moment.

[00:29:28] So the enabler, the person that, but, and it's all about building up your team members. So like you say, you're not putting blockers in front of them and, and you are really tuned in and responding to what that other person needs at the time, but you also know they've got your back. So that is incredibly reassuring, I imagine.

[00:29:48] So in the way that we all sort of. Perhaps quite defensive or the reasons that might lie behind our behavior. Sometimes it's because we think we are gonna be criticized or we are going to look bad [00:30:00] actually, if it's a sort of different way of, of thinking about it. But more powerful if you know other people have got your back already.

[00:30:08] You've got the space to be able to be responsive and not always feel like you've got to be impressive or you've gotta be the leader, but that you have the opportunity to be that person when you, when you want to be.

[00:30:21] Heather: It's a really powerful thing. I mean, even last night I did a show, um, with three of my colleagues and I'd actually come from a really long day in London and like very, very high pressure pitch meeting for us because we were going for a big piece of work, Rick.

[00:30:36] Make a huge difference to where we're at at the moment, you know? So obviously there's, there's all of that pressure and then coming to do a show kind of going, okay, we're gonna turn on the fun brain, or put the fun person hat on. And I was just starting to have those feelings of like, oh, okay, you know, can I not, can I do this?

[00:30:53] But like, you know, put your big girl trousers on Heather and you know, get in that mode. And I actually just looked at [00:31:00] the people that I was about to step on stage with and went. This is gonna be beyond fine. It's gonna be great. 'cause look at who I'm with. You know, I, I know that they've got my back. I absolutely know that in the instance that I kind of sat in the corner and rocked, I had a hard day that they would, they would catch me.

[00:31:18] But that allow, you know, that gives you the relaxation and the freedom to, to thrive and to take those risks. 'cause you know that they're, that they've got you. And I think that having that. Between you is very, very powerful and very underestimated. But of course it goes the same. It goes the opposite way.

[00:31:34] Right? Exactly as you say that. How is anyone supposed to thrive in an environment when they don't feel that, you know, not?

[00:31:42] Sarah: I'm interested in whether you think personally and whether you notice this in, um. Your team, the people that you're, you're, you are acting, performing with. Um, whether you think that you are people that have that natural disposition or whether you have learned to be better at it and better at that [00:32:00] connection with the people that you're working with, um, really tuning into them and being willing to put your ego aside and be there for them, whether that has been something that you've developed through the work that you're doing, and over time.

[00:32:15] Heather: Definitely, I think it's a learned scale. I think we were gonna talk a little bit potentially about creativity. I think all of these things are learned skills and my, my partner, Joel, who run the company with, if you ever say the word like talent to him, he'll like go on a two hour rant. 'cause he's like, it doesn't exist.

[00:32:31] Natural creativity doesn't exist. We are all creative. We are all talented, we all have these skills, but it's whether or not you nurture them and notice them and prioritize them. And so I think it's possible that improvisers. Have a natural, tend not natural tendency. They have a tendency more like that, or that's what they've learned or that's what they've been around, or their parents, their education.

[00:32:51] Who knows? Maybe it's a more familiar way of being, um, and therefore they're a little bit further ahead. But actually, I think [00:33:00] everybody learns it. And the more you do, you more develop it. So again, if you see. Improvisers who've been doing it for 20, 30 years. They do look like absolute ninjas. You cannot understand how they're managing to do it, because it's, it's so natural.

[00:33:12] That is how it

[00:33:13] Sarah: feels watching you. You're so good at it with Allie and Joan. It's so impressive. It's mind blowing. It makes you think, oh wow, that's incredible. I have no idea how. It feels like an impossible step that,

[00:33:27] Heather: well, that's very nice to hear. And I shouldn't say this because I might put myself out of a job, but I do genuinely think absolutely everybody can do that.

[00:33:35] I really, really do. So that's really interesting.

[00:33:36] Sarah: And let's pick up that point about creativity as well. How do you think that people can develop these, these skills? If they're learned skills, how? How can we do that?

[00:33:46] Heather: I think, um. Like anything, it's about practice. So let's bring it back to your running that you're gonna do this afternoon.

[00:33:54] Like if no, if you've never been for a run, you know, you go out for a run it, it bloody hurts. Yeah. You know, [00:34:00] I mean, when I first went out for a run, I don't think I'd get beyond five minutes and then you do 10 and then you do 15 and then, my goodness, maybe some months later, like, I think this might actually be enjoyable.

[00:34:10] You know, even if it hurts a bit, you're like, because you're building that muscle. And I think creativity is exactly the same. You've never been creative, you've never been encouraged to be. I, I think that's the thing. It's the danger of like, this thing of talking about talent is that it makes people feel like they're not creative.

[00:34:25] Just wanna give up and be like, well, I'm not a creative person. It's like

[00:34:28] Sarah: a blocker. It's like the yes, but isn't it?

[00:34:30] Heather: Oh, a hundred percent. And it's like, it's not that person's fault because that the messages they've had all their life, it's like, you are not creative. That's not the type of person you are.

[00:34:38] And it's, it's a. Myth for everybody to subscribe to, even creative people, to think I'm a creative person. No, you're not. You've just been given a head start because you've been practicing and someone told you once that you were, and so you got the chance to develop it. So I think, you know, you can probably hear the passion in my voice.

[00:34:58] I really care about [00:35:00] people knowing that they have that ability at their fingertips and. Yeah, being given the resources and tools to know that they can be creative and you know, it's not about painting or drawing or doing a poem. It's about resources and thinking outside the box. Whatever you do, you know, going there is a different way of thinking and yes, I could list a few tips for creativity.

[00:35:22] Yeah, that

[00:35:22] Sarah: would be good because I think it can feel, I mean, you know, with the parallel with running, it can feel painful to get through that first bit or even to carry on with it. It's too. And the idea of, you know, ultimately getting good at this thing that we are finding very hard, just feels, you know, feels really difficult steps to take.

[00:35:44] So are there things that we could all be doing in normal, everyday lives without feeling like we've got to paint a masterpiece that are just gonna help us open up the creativity?

[00:35:55] Heather: I think it depends on what you want to get good at being creative around, but I think [00:36:00] like. This is gonna sound mad, but I think like talking to yourself and writing things down is really not a bad way to start.

[00:36:07] I mean, I know there's a very famous book called The Artist Way that talks about morning pages, and one of the practices of that is to find some time every morning to just free write. You know, not if in a diary or not even having an aim, but just take 10 minutes to just keep writing things down and just allow that to pour outta you with no judgment, no expectation, no aim, no goal.

[00:36:29] You know, just, um. Exactly that. Um, and I think to, to just get used to letting what's in here come out. Um, so again, you know, you could talk to yourself or write things down. It might sound mad. The other thing is kind of creative restriction. We work with a lot, so write down 20 makes of car. Um, you know, right now don't think about it.

[00:36:53] Just do it. Um, and obviously. Some people are gonna be car enthusiasts and they'll be like 20. That's not enough from my vast [00:37:00] experience. But actually we find the fun thing is when you run out, what do you say when you run out of the correct answer? 'cause that's when the real creativity comes in, you know, that you have to actually, um, improvise and go, oh, a big car, a shiny car, my dad's car.

[00:37:15] And what does that make you think of? Um, once you've gone beyond like Ford and. Per, and you see that's my car knowledge. I've run out already.

[00:37:23] Sarah: I wouldn't get very far myself.

[00:37:25] Heather: So again, you know, in improv classes we will quite often give people prompts that are, get people in that flow state where it's like, I can just about do that, but then at a certain point it's gonna get a little bit harder.

[00:37:35] But then how do I respond to that? Again, that failure piece of do I shut down, do I get smaller? Do I go Yes, I run out of things to say, and I've noticed that about myself and I feel okay with it. So it's all about that like. Creativity, creating whatever it may be. Just the abundant, just like throwing it out there.

[00:37:55] No self-judgment. So again, I guess it would be like, do you want to write songs? Do you want to paint? Do [00:38:00] you want to come up with a solution for your company's pay point system? It like it's all the same thing, isn't it? Yes. Just like get it all out.

[00:38:10] Sarah: Yes.

[00:38:10] Heather: Whatever's in your head. Get it out. See how it matches with other people's.

[00:38:13] Build on someone else's. I

[00:38:16] Sarah: think, yeah, it, it reminds me of the sort of willingness to push into a bit of discomfort so you get to the limit of the things that you are secure on and that you know, and that you feel safe and not, not judged, not like you're gonna be wrong if you, you know, you, you're with those ideas, but then you get to the edge of that.

[00:38:38] You get to the limit, and then there's some willingness to push into the bit where you might be. Wrong. You might be making mistakes. You might come up with something that's, that other people think is stupid or that you think is stupid or you, and you have to kind of let go of the fear of that. It's all back to, I think you're, you're

[00:38:56] Heather: actually, I know, I mean actually you're making me realize that actually, [00:39:00] although I, in fact, exactly what I said about joy and terror, you know, you can't have one without the other almost.

[00:39:06] And so. I have to be really careful to keep putting myself into my comfort and instruction myself. 'cause lots of people say to me, oh my goodness, you do improv in front of people. That must be so, so scary. The reason it's not for me is a, that I practice, but be completely honest with you, the reason it's not scary for me is because I go, I'm making this up in front of you all.

[00:39:28] What, what do you expect the quality of this to be? And I think one of the reasons that I've come to that is because the idea of. Writing something down and showing it to someone and saying, I believe in this. What do you think is so much scarier really than making it up? Oh yeah. So I, you know, but I recognize that, and so I do make myself do that because I have to, because if that's scary for me, then I need to put myself in that place of, this is a bit vulnerable and scary.

[00:39:57] 'cause that's, you know, that's where the magic happens. That cartoon [00:40:00] isn't there of a, a bubble and it says, uh. Your comfort zone. Comfort. And there's a little circle, and then over here it says, where the magic happens. And it's a bit of a cliche, but I think you're absolutely right, which is like, I don't wanna make people feel horribly uncomfortable, but it's that stretch, isn't it?

[00:40:16] That little stretch there. Yeah. What they said that you are learning edge. Yeah. Being on just on the edge, you know?

[00:40:21] Sarah: Well, and because life would be so boring if we never challenged ourselves, stretched ourselves. And to do that, we have to be willing to kind of push. On those limits, don't we?

[00:40:34] Heather: Yeah, I totally agree.

[00:40:35] I mean, maybe you'll run this afternoon might be similar, you know, like a metaphor, right? Yeah, no,

[00:40:41] Sarah: absolutely. Yeah, totally. I wanna go back to something we were talking about a bit earlier, which is around listening, and it was when we were talking about how you, um, work as a team on stage and how you, you really tune into each other's listening, and I think listening is a fascinating concept, skill.[00:41:00]

[00:41:00] Something that so few people are really good at and that we could all do better all the time. Um, you know, there's the active listening, there's the, even when you present as active listening, are you really present? Um, you know, I think, I think I'm quite comfortable having a conversation where I'm asking somebody questions and I look like I'm listening, but sometimes my brain is doing something different and I'm not fully paying attention to what they're.

[00:41:28] Saying, are we, I'm sure we are all guilty of poor listening in different ways. What could we learn from improv, do you think, to get better at listening in an ordinary, applicable way that we, we could all think about?

[00:41:44] Heather: Yeah, I mean, gosh, listening is so key to what we do. Um, on stage. Let's be very kind of boundaried about it on stage.

[00:41:55] We don't have a script. So we start the show, first character comes [00:42:00] on. If you don't listen to what they say, you're in a lot of trouble very, very quickly because you are literally writing the script as you go. And it's as simple as like, but they got called Agatha. If I didn't listen to that, it's gonna cause me a lot of problems.

[00:42:14] So you have to listen like so intently. It's interesting. My scariest place to be in a, in the musical, in the showstoppers is off stage because what can happen exactly as you describe, as I'm listening to what's going on, but naturally thoughts are forming in my mind about, okay, what am I gonna introduce next?

[00:42:33] What will be the next scene, the next part of the story? And, um, that has to happen to a degree. But sometimes I'll, I'll describe it as blacking out because I'll be thinking, okay, so in a minute I'm gonna come on as a bear that's gonna come out with a cave. And then I'll go, oh my God, how long have I not been listening for?

[00:42:52] And it's probably been 0.1 of a second, but it's a terrifying feeling. 'cause for me in that moment there are actual consequences that, you [00:43:00] know, there's 800 people watching and if I haven't paid attention, they're gonna notice very quickly. That's like motivated by fear perhaps. But um. I do think that listening is, is a huge skill.

[00:43:13] I mean, I think listening, listening skills courses can sometimes be, I'm gonna teach you how to pretend you're listening. I wanna teach you how to look like you're listening. And there's, you know, there's some really good research around that, around empathy and mirroring and, you know, kind of voice and, and nodding out.

[00:43:30] We're both doing it all through this conversation. It's like nodding along 'cause we are listening to each other. So of course if you can fake that, that's gonna help. But I think, yeah, like really it's that noticing thing again, really tuning in and I think that's where meditation comes into it. Perhaps a lot of like that mindfulness of, it's impossible to listen all the time, but if you're able to notice when you're not listening, that's gonna help you a little bit more.

[00:43:54] Like even in this podcast, you know, you, you've probably got your questions on the screen and you've got that balance between [00:44:00] looking at the time doing a good job. Listening to me, making sure that you're also bringing any questions that you want to, thinking about what you might have for lunch, somewhere in there, you know?

[00:44:10] And it's completely human and natural. Of course it is. You know, you know, we're not, no one's, not human apart from Androids, but, um, but it's like forgiving yourself, isn't it? And going, I, I can at least, if I can be present. Then that's a good start and if I can notice and I'll stop listening, that's a really good start and then hopefully the listening kind of catches up.

[00:44:33] Sarah: I, I think there's a sweet spot and podcasting, like having a podcast conversation is a really good example of it because I, what I find myself doing is either I'm so drawn to what someone's saying that I'm just listening to them and I'm really focused on it. 'cause I'm like, this is so cool. Then I realized that I haven't thought about the next question that I'm gonna ask.

[00:44:52] I'm like, ah, need to get myself out of that or the other way. So I'm thinking, oh, I really wanna get onto this topic and, and lead the [00:45:00] conversation this way next. And then the, the risk that I haven't listened carefully enough. Um, so there's that sweet spot. And I think you are right. It's really hard to keep yourself in the listening sweet spot all the time, isn't it?

[00:45:13] Heather: Yeah. And actually that's again, with the. Celebrating failure thing we teach. One of the boundaries of failure that we define in those early days of acting improvisation is noticing that you stop listening.

[00:45:26] Sarah: Mm. So

[00:45:27] Heather: if you're in the middle of an exercise and you're like, I just haven't paid attention, we'll encourage people to go, hooray.

[00:45:32] I stop listening. I don't know what's happening. Um, because again, it's just like bringing to light that shame around. I can't quite keep up or stop paying attention or I really don't know what to do. You know, it's that comfort. And again, so we, we sometimes, even though listening's key, we sometimes focus more on the presence angle.

[00:45:50] 'cause it's not a memory test. Listening isn't like, I heard exactly what you said. I'm gonna repeat it back again. That's a great technique, isn't it, for listening skills. But the heart of it is like, [00:46:00] I am here with you, I am listening and I'm with you and I'm not gonna remember everything you said, but am I paying attention to the vibe and.

[00:46:09] Stuff like that. So I think it's really powerful. Is

[00:46:11] Sarah: that what you would, so the example of you being a bear in the, like a side of the stage waiting to come on and having had your blackout moment, and then, is that what you would do? Would you try to, I dunno, turn it into a joke or a, um, just like, and a sort of admission, like fess up type of, I'm not saying like necessarily in those words fess up, but like make it obvious that this is.

[00:46:36] An an admission that maybe something slipped by you? Is that what you a hundred percent.

[00:46:41] Heather: A hundred percent. Because if you try and bury that fear and that shame, then that starts to get so loud in your own head, your inner critic, like, oh no, I dunno, the person's name. And then you shut down and it's impossible to listen.

[00:46:54] You know, people talk about being in your head. Actually, one of our podcasts was about being in your head and what does that [00:47:00] actually feel like for different people, but a lot down to. Not being able to hear, feeling isolated, feeling like everything's happening in slow motion because it's a sort of panic and fear response.

[00:47:10] So we again, try to sort of like just get past that and sort of say Hello, I have no idea what your name is because I wasn't listening. And then people kind of really like that, you know? And again, audiences respond really well to that honesty. Yeah. Again, I did a show, the show I did last night, uh, we got a suggestion of it being in a staff room and.

[00:47:30] It was no one's fault, but one character walked in and named themself as senior management because another character said, Martin, you're not supposed to be in the staff room. He said, yes, I know I'm 'cause you're not a teacher. This character, this improviser said, yes, I'm senior management. But the other improviser who hadn't quite heard almost simultaneously called him a prefect.

[00:47:51] And I could hear the audience sort of laugh at the mistake, but get a little bit tense. So I kind of came in a few minutes later as a different character [00:48:00] and I said, oh, this scheme that they're doing where they get senior management to dress up as school children and act as prefect. I think it's really weird and it kind of acknowledged the mistake, but it again turned it into gold and it actually ended up being sort of a feature of the show that he had to report to the teachers as the prefect, and then they had to report back to him as a C management, and it was all very iCal and silly, but it only came from that.

[00:48:22] Mistake and acknowledging it. And I wasn't trying to shame either of my colleagues. I was just trying to go, this has happened and we have to deal with it, and they're fine with it. You know, because it happened, it was a mistake. It's okay, we move on. It actually became the feature. But I think, uh, that's my most recent example of that kind of thing.

[00:48:40] Sarah: I, I love that because I think as with so much of what you do on stage, it's so much of it's translatable to other situations and human human interactions and. That honesty is much more endearing and warm and human than [00:49:00] if we pretend that we are always perfect or that we try and cover stuff up that isn't, isn't great and doesn't present very well.

[00:49:08] Um, and I think that's, that's so important. I think that. I find that I, I feel like the most effective team managers or leaders or people that I really look up to are people that are willing to stay and acknowledge that they haven't always got it right. I mean, it's fine when they want to be strong and say, no, this is what I think and we're gonna go with it.

[00:49:34] That's okay. And especially if it's ideally done nicely. But I think the willingness to say to. Um, be, be honest about the fact that you don't always have the right answers or that something might have gone a bit wrong, um, actually builds a trust and a confidence and, you know, genuine relationship and rapport with the people that you're working with.

[00:49:59] [00:50:00] That forms a much stronger bond and a much stronger loyalty from the people that you're working with. A

[00:50:05] Heather: hundred percent. And I think a, a leader or a manager who says. I've heard what you said, but I actually am gonna go with my own idea and this is why. And again, they're really kind about it. It's, it's, it's that presence thing and it's, it's reality.

[00:50:20] It's like this is what is actually happening. Um, and again, having, having worked in corporate as the sort of arts person, I mean, I'm stunned over and over again about how many kind of elephants of various sizes there are in various rooms and. You'll have all the management, and then the conference organizers will be like, just make sure you don't talk about this.

[00:50:43] Just don't mention anything about this. As long as we don't mention it, it's not happening. And it's like, oh, okay. And actually it's quite interesting in an improv context, when you've been told not to touch something, there's people in the room that want to talk about that thing. So when you ask them for suggestions, they are going to say that thing.

[00:50:59] And then, [00:51:00] you know, obviously with my professional hat on, you have to. Redirect it to be something else. But it's like, people want to talk about reality. They want to talk about what's actually happening. And there's another great improv quote we, we love from, um, a guy called Ally McDermott, who's an opera director actually.

[00:51:13] And he says, you can argue with reality as much as you want. You're never gonna win. And um, I just love that, you know, it's like, well, you can try to not listen and do what you thought you wanted to do, but, you know, ultimately with improvisation, it is about letting go and, and rolling with it, you know, like.

[00:51:31] I thought this was gonna happen. I really wanted this to happen, but ultimately that's, that's not what's happening here now. And sometimes that's great. It's like, oh, this new cool shiny extra things come along. And sometimes it's like, this is gonna be a bit painful, but. We've gotta go through it, you know?

[00:51:46] Yeah.

[00:51:46] Sarah: That's a beautiful summary. I feel like there's so many different strands we could explore and so many different ideas that come to life through what you do. Um, but I'm conscious of time and I'm really grateful for the time that you've given us. [00:52:00] I'd like to end with a, a question that I ask all of our, speak to the human guests, which is speaking to you as a human.

[00:52:07] What's exciting you at the moment and what are you looking forward to? What's motivating you either in your work or I. Something else. I, I was

[00:52:15] Heather: thinking

[00:52:16] Sarah: about

[00:52:17] Heather: this and I was thinking, oh, there's, there's so many things that are exciting me in my work, but the kind of, um, kind of schult answer I wanna give is like having, um, this festive season come upon us with my 2-year-old and almost 4-year-old because Oh, it's so exciting actually.

[00:52:34] It's really nice. It's like, actually don't get me into the whole commercialization aspect. Try not to focus on that, but you know. My son, he really like, this is the year when he's gonna actually believe in all of that stuff and all that magic and Santa, and it's like, oh, it's so fun to again, use a bit of this playful, imaginative side, but with my, my beautiful kids.

[00:52:53] Oh. So yeah, I'm, I'm looking forward to, um. Yeah, but a bit of [00:53:00] make believe with the little people in my life instead of with all the other adults in my life. Oh, that's

[00:53:04] Sarah: amazing. Yeah. It's very different having an 18-year-old and a 16-year-old and they, yeah, they just have to like keep me entertained now.

[00:53:12] Yeah, absolutely. This has been such a joyful conversation, so thought provoking. So many, like I say, so many different strands that I feel like we could continue to explore for hours, frankly. Um, yeah. I'm really, really grateful for your time. Um, I'm sure people will be very interested in, in this, but also in the ideas that it kind of brings to the surface.

[00:53:33] So thank you so much, Heather. It's been, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

[00:53:39] Heather: Absolutely. Right back at you. Love talking to you. Thanks for having me on.

[00:53:43] Sarah: Great. Bye for [00:54:00] now.