Anthony Tasgal on storytelling

[00:00:00] Sarah: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organizations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me in hearing from our brilliant guests.

[00:00:29] In this episode of Speak to the Human, I'm chatting about one of my favorite subjects with someone who really understands it inside out. Anthony Tasgal, known as Tas, is a storytelling expert. He's an author of multiple books on storytelling and communications, a brand and comms strategist and lecturer, and a speaker at international events.

[00:00:50] I got to know Tas when I invited him to be our keynote speaker at the first in person speak to the human event in Cambridge in 2022, and all of us there found his insights [00:01:00] into the power of storytelling and behavioral economics, really compelling. In this conversation, we explore why stories are innately vital to how we think as humans and how they can be used for better communication within organizations.

[00:01:15] Tara shares some tips for how to get started using storytelling techniques in simple ways to enhance ordinary ways we all communicate at work. I hope you enjoy listening, and as always, please do drop me a line with your thoughts, feedback and suggestions for future guests.

[00:01:36] Hello Tas, thanks for joining me on the podcast today. How are you?

[00:01:40] Tas: Uh, I'm good. Thank you, Sarah. I'm just slightly, just for everyone's benefit, I'm slightly jet lagged, so my answers are a little bit delayed. Uh, that's probably why

[00:01:50] Sarah: Jet lagged and with Built-in Delay Built, that's how I think

[00:01:53] Tas: of myself. Yes.

[00:01:55] Sarah: Excellent. Well, we'll, uh, we'll cut you plenty of, uh, slack, [00:02:00] so don't worry about it. Let's start by, um, asking you please to give our listeners a bit of background about yourself.

[00:02:06] Tas: Yeah, so I started off working, um, in ad agencies as what's called an account planner strategist. Um, so we spent a lot of time doing presentations, watching presentations, working with brands, doing communication, and got interested in a couple of topics.

[00:02:23] One was storytelling. When I realized how most presentations and most brands were so unbearably dull. Um, and before that, um, as an academic, I was a classist. And I still think of myself as a, as a lapsed classist. Um, so I spent a lot of time with Homer and Virgil and thought, actually, these are great stories and human beings used stories.

[00:02:44] To connect. So, you know, why don't we use that in our, in our presentation. So I worked in the ad industry for quite a while, got bored with the fact that every, the answer to every question was a 42nd television commercial.

[00:02:55] Mm.

[00:02:57] Tas: And wanted to do training and wanted to do some [00:03:00] writing, all sorts of other things.

[00:03:01] So struck out on my own and I now yeah, do a mixture of training, uh, lecturing, speaking at events, writing and stuff that I just find interesting.

[00:03:11] Sarah: Brilliant. So, I mean, you've, you've told us a little bit about that interest in, in storytelling, but what do you think it is about stories that's really sparked your imagination and that connection for you personally?

[00:03:22] Yeah. When it came, you know, at

[00:03:24] Tas: the risk of, you know, going through my own backstory, um, as I say, I was convinced, as was everyone who knew me, that I would be spending most of my life. Dust in Oxford, translating Virgil into English, um, and then found.

[00:03:46] Cultures around the world, religions, faiths, whatever. We all have stories that we use to understand the world, to compartmentalize the world, to understand who we're, where we fit in. So I'd always had that in the background and never lost it. And then, as I said, once I [00:04:00] started working with brands, uh, and clients and enduring, uh, intolerably dull presentations, I just thought, you know, maybe there's a way of like blending all these things together.

[00:04:09] Yeah.

[00:04:10] Tas: Um, then the other thing that happened was I got interested in behavioral economics and the power of. So all that sort of got, got into the, into the sort of blender, the system one unconscious,

[00:04:21] some of. We talk about presentations or pitches or speeches or brands, and that's sort of led me on the path that I'm on. Really.

[00:04:33] Sarah: What do you think it's in human nature that makes stories so powerful? Because, you know, absolutely agree. Undoubtedly there is something different that connects with us. But what, what is that like?

[00:04:46] How would you express it?

[00:04:48] Tas: I think I used to sort of say it was just sort of baked into. As I've got more interested in, in neuro neuroscience and behavioral economics, I've realized that it's po partly cultural because as I said, [00:05:00] all cultures, uh, tell stories. Um, stories are universal. The same cannot be said however for PowerPoint or Excel.

[00:05:08] But the fact is that it's, it's actually part of our, our chemistry, it's part of our brain. The mirror neurons, which gets switched on if you are listening to a story or you are telling a story. Uh, and also, um. Sort of plug, shameless plug. Um, I did a TEDx last year talk, and I mentioned they asked me to talk about some science, and it's a huge amount of science that, for example, links storytelling with a raised level of oxytocin in the blood, and oxytocin is sometimes known as love molecule.

[00:05:35] Or the hug molecule because it creates human warmth and empathy. So again, it isn't just some sort of weird, fluffy topic, beloved of people with stubble in shortage. Um, it seems to be part of what makes us, literally what makes us human. So in a sense, I feel I'm not really pushing something uphill. Um, like Sisyphus, I'm sort of dealing with working with brain.[00:06:00]

[00:06:00] How we often do sort of communications, which I think is working against the brain. That's

[00:06:04] Sarah: so interesting because it's kind of multi-tiered, isn't it? We've got this kind of chemical level of what's actually happening. We're making those connections, but I guess there's a, um, a purpose of storytelling that is shared imagination and shared memory as well, back to the kind of oral tradition.

[00:06:23] But even, even now when we have so many different ways of recording information and communicating it. There's something about it that helps us to remember stuff when we need it in a way that's much more, I think, powerful than many other forms of communication. Yeah, I mean the

[00:06:39] Tas: risk of the risk of getting too heavy too quickly.

[00:06:42] 'cause I can over it go. That's fine. The trivial to the, um, one of the things that I'll say about, um, stories and I ask people in training or speaking think about who you as a person, you know, what are you, what is yourself? What is your identity? If [00:07:00] it's not the sum of the stories that you tell about yourself and that other people tell about you?

[00:07:05] And as I said, I'm not gonna apologize for being too heavy, but I think that is a, a very interesting way of looking at human beings. So our brain is constantly searching for new stories that reflect who we are or who we want to be. And our brain is carefully sort of frittering away old stories that no longer fit us.

[00:07:23] Our brain is on a constant search for stories, which is again, why I'm so interested in it, because it's, it's, as I say, what our brain is sort of naturally doing. So whether you're doing a speech at a conference or you know, talking to people or training, it is those stories and anecdotes that create emotions and create memories.

[00:07:42] So there's a perfect sort of Venn diagram for me. Which has those three words in its story, emotion and memory, they all play together.

[00:07:50] Sarah: Brilliant. And yeah, I really like that because I think there's that, um, element of exploring our own identity and how we connect ourselves to the world and [00:08:00] having our own story that's very personal to us.

[00:08:02] That makes sense in our head, whether or not we've articulated it as part of our own self perception, isn't it the way that we see ourselves in the world. But it's also making sense of the information that's coming into us from the outside. What, how does the world hang together for us? How do we explore our way through it and, and make sense of what we're seeing every day?

[00:08:25] And you know, that's what we see on the news. It's all stories, but also how do we relate and communicate to. People, other humans that are doing the same thing. It's all stories, isn't it? It's, and I, in

[00:08:38] Tas: a funny sort of way, I keep thinking, why do I need to do this? Yeah. Is it not a And your, your thing is called, yeah, speak to the human.

[00:08:46] You know, I spoke to your conference a couple of years ago. It was one of the big themes in the Not conference in New York last week about we've gotta be more human. And there's a bit of me that looks at this, I suppose, like the emperor's new clothes and thinks.[00:09:00]

[00:09:03] Of. So I get that. And there's always been things that human beings fear, but we have got to just remind ourselves that whether it's AI or call centers or robotics, whatever, you know, that human humanity is, is the thing that we, we share. And storytelling is the default. I don't wanna use software 'cause it uses on the computer image, but it is, it is the way that our brain perceives the world, you know, as, as we said.

[00:09:32] So actually the more that we do. I think to sort of connect with other people, which is very important, but B, we can actually create that sort of emotional connection, which is so important, you know, not just in communication. Mm.

[00:09:47] Sarah: And I know you've, you've talked about this and it's in your books as well, but I think that you are good at understanding that there isn't a separation between what you're talking about with the.

[00:09:58] Quantitative side of the [00:10:00] world, the technology, the numbers, the data, all of that stuff that permeates everything that we do. There isn't a separation from that. And our innate need to tell stories. In fact, actually we can make sense of the quantitative side through using this, this part of how our brain functions.

[00:10:19] Is that, how do you, how would you explain that? How, what do you see happening there?

[00:10:24] Tas: Yeah. It's one of the, the sort of key things, um. Almost like my signature dish is the golden thread and I, and it goes back again to my classical background thesis and the minor tour and the labyrinth and NY gives thesis a golden thread so he can find his his way into the labyrinth.

[00:10:41] And then after he s slain, because that's what it did in those days, slay or he can find his way out. So whether it's quantitative or qualitative, and I do an awful research companies who are. Forgive me for saying this, uh, research people. Um, but there is a tendency, let's say, you know, to [00:11:00] about, there's a quote that I often use now from a, a client of mine when I ask 'em to do some homework and they say, we have a tendency to tell everyone everything.

[00:11:07] Mm.

[00:11:09] Tas: And I thought, yeah, that, that is the problem. But for me, storytelling is going back to what we said a couple minutes ago. It's a way of ordering. So when I work with clients on their speeches, on their documents. One of the key things I'll say is, okay, you cancel everyone, everything. So don't try. And we know what will happen, which is, you know, you'll bore your audience into submission.

[00:11:31] So you find a thread, you find an argument, you find a hypothesis. Um, Philip Pullman has a lovely expression. Philip Pullman of his dart materials. Faith, everyone hasn't read it or five books. Now, I watched a series on B, b, C. Please do. He says it's the storytell.

[00:11:51] To give the, the reader a path through the woods. And I love that expression for a number of reasons. Firstly, 'cause so many stories are set, especially fairytales, [00:12:00] um, in woods. There's a very deep sort of reason for that. Um, but also it's, again, it's a nice metaphor, like the golden thread. So for me, that's one of the practical ways.

[00:12:10] So whether you've got a 50 slide quantitative deck about user usage and attitude, or whether you've just done some focus groups or whether you are giving a speech, the the first thing you have to do is avoid just telling everyone everything. Find a thread, find an argument, storyboard it, and then try and take out as much that isn't.

[00:12:32] And yes, it's hard and it's, and that's

[00:12:38] just working. Rather than against it by, you know, as I say, BT into submission.

[00:12:44] Sarah: That's great. I'd, I'd like to come back to that about how stories are used in organizations, but first it's just, I'd, I'd love to explore that a little bit more about that kind of, I don't know, that sort of deliciously magical side of stories.

[00:12:57] The going into the woods, [00:13:00] the stuff that we connect with from very first childhood memories of hearing stories, you know, even if they're not. Verbal, the picture books and the everything that's magical about books from the, the youngest age and how they stay with us. What do you think it is that makes a good story?

[00:13:19] Big question.

[00:13:21] Tas: Yeah, there are, there are, there's a, I have a link, I have a chart with I think 16 boxes on to answer that question, Sarah, which don't worry. I. Now,

[00:13:30] Sarah: it might not work so well talking through it or in audio,

[00:13:39] Tas: but one of the things that we talk an awful about, a couple of things, one is. Um, I haven't given you any, any etymology yet, which is very unusual for me because I'm obsessed with origins of words and we've had 13 minutes, and I feel very bad that I haven't done it yet. So I normally talk about word authority.

[00:13:55] So again, going back to Aristotle. Aristotle said there are three areas of persuasion. [00:14:00] And by the way, a lot of what I do, I call it storytelling. Technically it's rhetoric, but I realized many years ago that if I tell people I'm gonna talk about rhetoric, no one would come. They'd love the

[00:14:08] Sarah: room. Yeah.

[00:14:09] Tas: I call it storytelling.

[00:14:10] So he talks about ethos, logos, and pathos. Those are the three elements. So logos is words, facts, information, which we, you know, we don't have a problem with pathos, feelings as in. Uh, empathy, sympathy, pathological, um, passion is the, is the Latin equivalent of that word. Um, but ethos, he says, and the best translation, the modern translation, I suppose, is somewhere between credibility and authority.

[00:14:34] And I love the word authority 'cause we've forgotten the word that's in the word authority is the word author. So again, going back to our earlier point about, about the power of story, it's because we give authority and status to people that tell us stories. So going back to what I think the first sort of question you said a second ago, um, one of the key things, but the other bit of etymology is the word character.

[00:14:57] So we have characters in stories, and again, because [00:15:00] the etymology another, another etymological digression, um, the word character in Greek means a stamp as in something is stamped on, which is literally what a brand is, like a branding iron. So the word has the same meaning, but in a, in a story, obviously a character is a, is a person.

[00:15:18] They have goals, hopes, obstacles, fears. So for me, one of the key things that when I'm working with clients on what, whatever it is, if it's their internal comms or external comms, speeches, et cetera, is, is to try and actually make it about people and characters. And again, one of the exercises I get people do is about creating conflict because you can't have a story without conflict.

[00:15:42] Um, and often clients will say to me, oh yeah, we have. I'll look at them, uh, and I'll say they're not stories. They're case studies. You know, somebody came to us, we did this. It was brilliant. The end. That's not, you need a conflict because you have a conflict [00:16:00] between hero villain, good and bad. The brain is invested in that conflict.

[00:16:06] And again, one of the key elements of storytelling is empathy. I'll wait in a minute and maybe we'll come back to empathy later because it's a massive topic, you know, by itself. But those are, those are a couple of areas that I would say, um, in terms of using and deploying storytelling.

[00:16:20] Sarah: That's great. And do you think stories always have to have a kind of story arc, whether the characters kind of.

[00:16:29] And something And does it always work that way or is it It'll

[00:16:33] Tas: very much on the context as there are back to.

[00:16:42] Um, Murray going back to, um, all sorts of people have talked about, you know, the nature of the arc and you can do it, uh, that, and you can talk about various brands. So you can talk about the guy who basically created Nike by looking at his wife's Waffle Lion. And you can [00:17:00] talk about, again, a problem he had.

[00:17:02] He had the it.

[00:17:09] There are loads of different tools available. So the story arc is one, conflict is another. Um, headlining actually trying to create a headline for your story. Um, there are all sorts of different, um, avenues that story opens up. So my, my goal is always to say it's, it's a very rich. Sort of cornucopia of the, if you like, um, of ways of thinking and depending on who your audience is, how much desire there is for this.

[00:17:39] Or medium you are using. Um, some of these will be more, um, available to you to use and some will be perhaps less.

[00:17:46] Sarah: So yeah, let's pick that up with that kind of application into an organizational context. I mean, it'd be great to have some concrete examples of how organizations might use stories, but. I suppose [00:18:00] first, why do you think they should be thinking more about this?

[00:18:04] I think

[00:18:05] Tas: to some extent it reflects what you were saying before, which is there is this tendency, and again, I haven't managed to go this far without using the jargon, I think, which is quite unusual. There is a tendency for, for, for clients and companies to get buried or actually to bury themselves really, uh, in very technical jargon.

[00:18:23] And I've worked with BBC, Panasonic, Nokia, Mauser, Royal Albert Hall, all sorts of different clients in very, very different markets. And yet they all manage, they all manage to find ways of burying what they do, bearing the human side of what they do in very often bland and nonsensical jargon. So a lot of it, the first stage, and it's in the books and in my training, the first stage is real.

[00:18:51] It's like, you know, going to Alcoholics Anonymous, first thing you have to do is realize you have a problem. So a lot of it's saying, okay, let's, let's try and rid ourselves, [00:19:00] like, call junk the jargon. Let's try and get rid of as much of that, because you can't make a story if you are buried, you know, knee deep and jargon.

[00:19:08] So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is, okay, what, what have you got that has real people? Whether it's the person that created the company, so whether it's Steve Jos, apple, or Branson or whatever, I talk about them in, in fact, the last book as well. If you've got a foundation story or a foundation myth or creation story, that's great and use it because people can, again, empathize with what that person was trying to to achieve.

[00:19:36] Um, even if you haven't got that, you've probably got real examples of what it's done for people. So again, don't just talk about the technology of what you produce. What does it mean for people? Does it make their lives easier? Does it give them opportunities to do other things? So, uh, it's always about looking at the sort of end to end human benefit.

[00:19:57] Personal sort of way. And it can be, as I said [00:20:00] before, any type of application that I've mentioned, but it's really about getting those stages set first. Because as I say, if you don't, everything is gonna be built on the platform of, you know, meaninglessness.

[00:20:11] Sarah: Yeah. So I suppose as a kind of grand scale to organizational stories, like the origin story and the.

[00:20:19] Company culture and those big picture things that if those have been well told, I guess it's easier for other people in the company to pick them up and to relate to them if they have Yes. The skills and the thinking to do that. What if that doesn't exist and you are, I dunno, a manager in a large organization and you want to use storytelling.

[00:20:40] How might you go about that in a sort of slightly smaller scale way for your own purposes?

[00:20:46] Tas: No, it's, it's a really good question. Of all the different sort of gigs that I do. Um, one of the more common gigs, um, so some of it is external comms, some of it is internal comms. But occasionally I do get that, which is, you know, I really [00:21:00] want to sort of create a culture.

[00:21:01] I want to, you know, I'd extend my leadership skills, whatever it might be. And I feel that the story can help me, but I don't know how. So again, part of it is, is about trying to identify that sort of internal corporate culture, brand culture, personal culture, whatever, but finding a way of expressing it.

[00:21:22] 'cause again, often see organizations and even before I was working in ad agencies. Now I'll go to companies or bits of government, whatever, and they've got their values and they've, and everyone knows that actually those words are just meaningless. Again, as I said, they sort of don't stand for anything and all the same anyway.

[00:21:43] So part of it is, is is finding ways and often it's language. 'cause again, one of the things that I'm, I'm fascinated as you can tell, is just language. So part of it's saying to, to people, especially in that sort of internal leadership sort of space. Try and use language, which is [00:22:00] much more human and much more creative.

[00:22:02] For example, one of my big areas, which again we may or may not have time to cover, Sarah, is humor.

[00:22:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:22:09] Tas: Okay. So book five was called the Insight Book, which self reasonably self descriptive. And again, what I was talking about in New York is what is an insight? How do you come up with insights? And I'm, I'm fascinated by the overlap between insight and humor.

[00:22:24] So for me, insight is like a punchline. So two fish in a tank, one says to the other, how'd you drive this thing? Good live. Live laughter. So again, if anyone wants a, a Greek word, actually whether you want it or not, it's called parapros ian. And it means, it literally means going in an unexpected direction, do exactly the same job,

[00:22:48] Sarah: right?

[00:22:49] Tas: But the point is, and I have a little sort of section called, you know, why so serious? Um. Which is for Batman and Joker fans out there, because often I think in, in, uh, [00:23:00] comms, it's very serious and very grown up, and therefore actually very dull. Now, I'm not saying this is right for every brand or every lead or whatever, but I do encourage people just to be, to, to look at being more playful and humorous and witty.

[00:23:15] Because if you think about some of the things that unite us as human beings, some of the great brands like Apple or Specsavers, whatever. They do use humor.

[00:23:23] Yeah.

[00:23:24] Tas: So again, I'm not saying it's a blanket, um, answer to everything, but I think again, that is something that I encourage leaders to do because again, it creates that word that I've talked about before.

[00:23:34] Empathy. Humor is all about creating empathy. If people laugh with you, they're relating to what you are saying. So for me, again, that's a really underappreciated. Human characteristic, which works so many different areas.

[00:23:49] Sarah: That's brilliant. Do you think that there are elements of. Core sort of organizational structure and leadership where there's just a degree of caution about being able [00:24:00] to do that, that constrains use of that.

[00:24:02] How do you, how do you see that manifesting and other ways to work with it around it?

[00:24:09] Tas: You are absolutely right Sarah, and I'm always at, at at pains to say to people, this is not right for everyone or every context, for every brand, every situation I. Tell jokes or even necessarily to use stories. It really depends on what's right for, as I say, that company and that person.

[00:24:28] But, but my point is, I think if we, if we can wean ourselves off this rather sort of aloof, cold, informal, clinical way of talking. I blame, I dunno, hope hopefully no one, no one listening or you, uh, um, have a partner who works in management consultancy. Um, I think I blame management consultants largely. Um, because what they do is they create all this language and people go, oh, that sounds really, and then when you realize it's, there's nothing there.

[00:24:59] So [00:25:00] again, going back to what I said about jargon, really, um, it, it is trying to just say if we can, as I say, wean ourselves off this. And as with all these things, there's a spectrum, and if you try a little bit of this sort of more human, more humorous approach, fine. If you want to go further down that, that, that spectrum, fine.

[00:25:19] It's really up to, as I say, what what you feel is right. Because as some of it's worked in, you know, marketing and advertising for centuries, you know, the first rule is always understand your.

[00:25:36] Organizations where you can just tell that is just so ingrained in their culture that you can't, but I'm always trying at least to say, just see what it feels like to try a different type of language or, well,

[00:25:48] Sarah: and I think that whatever those constraints are, whatever the context is, it really, it comes down to emotional connection, doesn't it?

[00:25:56] So if one way of making an emotional [00:26:00] connection doesn't quite work in this context. So there needs to be another way, and I couldn't agree more about stepping away, having the courage to step away from. Either being too safe or where it's just not gonna get listened to or being too corporate or whatever.

[00:26:17] Sounds kind of grown up and I know what I'm doing and kind of, I'm, I'm here demonstrating my credibility. It's just like, actually this isn't interesting. What, what are the connections that we can make so that people get it and they're excited and they, they, they want to be part of whatever story you are telling.

[00:26:35] So I, I, I think I love what you're saying about humor. Couldn't agree more. I think it's fantastic. But there are other ways of making that emotional connection. Do you, can you talk about some of those other ingredients and related to that, um, our story's more effective perhaps in a sort of internal, I don't know, presentation for example.

[00:26:58] Um, if you [00:27:00] can bring a personal element to it. Is that, does that work? Do you see that working? Well?

[00:27:05] Tas: Okay, let me, let me address the first part of that question because, uh, firstly it allows me to talk about my new book

[00:27:12] Sarah: Setting You up Beautifully there. Yeah.

[00:27:14] Tas: Beautifully set up. Yeah. So, um, yeah, the new book is called The Consumer Behavior Book and it is my, my take on behavioral economics.

[00:27:23] And you've mentioned the word emotion. Um, and for me that is the springboard for all of this. And we've talked a little bit about it, but if I can just sort of link it to what you were saying. Val, economics tells us a number of things. The main one is that we like to think that we are in control of what we do and we're in control of our decisions.

[00:27:42] And spoiler alert, uh, we're largely not. Um, and there's a great quote from a, a neuroscientist called David Eagleman who says, we don't think the way we think. We think. I always feel should be followed by a round of applause because it's such a beautiful way of saying we like to think we're rational and logical, independent, [00:28:00] but let's be honest, we're not.

[00:28:02] So we are far more affected by our emotions. And I think what you just said, Sarah, is interesting because. No one really knows. But a lot of people would argue that the most important emotion is fear, actually. Uh, just over in the states and we were talking about, you know, the political situation and if you think about any political situation anywhere, fear is never too far away.

[00:28:22] Um, and I don't wanna get into the B word 'cause I've had quite a few years off talking about Brexit. So, um, my therapist. Um, but fear is incredibly important. But the way that you talked about it, Sarah, is important. 'cause an awful lot of companies are driven by fear. They're driven by if we do try something new, you know, it's a risk, we might fail.

[00:28:44] We might. So part of all of this, um, about storytelling, about applying emotions, about looking for insight, is by saying if you are driven by fear, um, that's probably a recipe for doing. Or [00:29:00] exciting. So you've got to understand a way of trying to set your fear aside and um, again, if you just look at what are consider to be the big six emotions, which we see on facial expressions, happiness, sadness, fear, and disgust.

[00:29:15] If don't follow that, you can just inside out i a getting clients to emotions and say, okay, whatever you working on, it's product or a website or internal. Minute, don't worry about what you are saying, just think about what emotions you are trying to evoke. And that leads me really nicely to what's the best way of e evoking emotions?

[00:29:39] Oh, it's through stories. So for me it's, it's a nice way in which they all sort of play together. And going back to the second half of your question, I think especially with internal sort of communications or any form of internal sort of dialogue. Again, I think it's just much easier if we're, if we're open and [00:30:00] transparent and honest about emotions, about whether it's, I dunno, the people that we work with or the relationship we have with our clients.

[00:30:08] I just think it's, it's just, it's going to be a much more effective outcome if we don't try to obscure these things with, again, with jargon or evasive language. But actually just be honest. So again, because I come from a background of. Creating or working with creative people and showing ads to clients, we have to be honest and say, okay, this is, this is why I don't like it, or this is why we think it.

[00:30:33] And rather than, again, just avoiding what is emotionally honest, because that leads to all sorts of, you know, all sorts of chaos.

[00:30:41] Sarah: Do you think this is something we need to practice because, uh, it feels like sometimes that's not gonna come easily to people, and do we need to try and. Lean into it a bit.

[00:30:55] Help ourselves to get more comfortable with that. Yeah,

[00:30:58] Tas: and again, I often find [00:31:00] myself, and I sometimes say this when I'm doing training or consultancy with clients, is a lot of the time I'm being brought in to sort of give people permission. I'm not really there to teach them stuff or sort of am a bit about behavioral economics or story storytelling insight, but give people permission.

[00:31:17] Express themselves.

[00:31:18] Mm-hmm. Because often

[00:31:19] Tas: I find, and okay, I know I come from a creative background, so creative people, that's their job. But what always annoyed me about working in, in the ad industry was there were people who were called creative. So by definition everyone else who wasn't creative wasn't creative.

[00:31:34] And I always found that slightly annoying. Um, so I think a lot of what I'm trying to do is to say to people, you know, I'm, I'm here because we are, we're trying to give you permission. We're giving you legitimacy. To, to think outside the box or to be creative or to, again, put your emotions into things. So I think once I, once I do that, if I've got permission, you know, from the top, I can say to people, don't worry.

[00:31:59] [00:32:00] In this workshop, in this whatever, you can be as open and questioning and curious as you want to be, because that's, that's why I'm. Again, there's a spectrum here, obviously, but generally most people would o will open up and become more creative and more curious and that usually leads, I think, to more sort of worthwhile outcomes.

[00:32:24] Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I, I, I think in my mind as well related to that is that you don't have to be excellent at this. Hmm. You know, I mean, there's gonna be those people like you who are experienced writers and have always. Kind of grown up telling stories and thinking about it, really engaged with that side of things.

[00:32:41] But there are many people where they wouldn't categorize themselves as a storyteller if it's kind of related in their mind to being, like you say, a creative type. They're like, oh. That's, that's not me. I'm gonna stick with my, my safe way of doing this presentation or whatever it is. But, but actually, we don't have to be [00:33:00] outstanding as storytellers in order to use some of these techniques to make something land better.

[00:33:06] More memorable, more engaging for people to have some kind kind of connection with it. It's, I, I think, yeah, is this fair and do you see this happening? It's just about practicing some of those ways of doing it and, and getting in the habit of, of thinking about it. Even if it's just a little bit, it's gonna be.

[00:33:24] A little bit better than it would be if you were not doing it all.

[00:33:27] Tas: Absolutely. I don't wanna be sort of, you know, um, generalized and be rude to everyone, but I think the bar is relatively low because I often say to people, you know, how many presentations do you think that I've either witnessed or created myself?

[00:33:39] And if anyone's listening and maybe Sarah, we can send 'em a book. The person, if, if someone writes either to you or to me or LinkedIn or my email, the person who gets nearest, I send Nice.

[00:33:50] Sarah: Excellent. I.

[00:33:53] Tas: And most of them are completely unmemorable, and I've forgotten

[00:33:56] them,

[00:33:57] Tas: but there's only, there's a few that I do remember, [00:34:00] and it is, I think because they do the things that we've talked about, they're, they're, they're emotional.

[00:34:04] They have something that leaves a dent in the memory. And again, going back to the other point, um, this isn't for everyone. I mean, this, as I said, there is a spectrum and I, I've developed rather bizarrely, um, for a classist, a segmentation based on marine biology. So hold on tight.

[00:34:23] Sarah: I am.

[00:34:25] Tas: Over the years I've, I've come to conclusion that there's a sort of three part segmentation to people.

[00:34:30] So one group, um, are sponges and they absorb all of this and they run with it and they love it. And obviously, you know, you want, you want lot of sponges in your training or in your group, on your company. The second group are clams and they will clam up and they will pretty much not want to play. And again, even when you're doing focus groups, there's, there's, there's always somebody who is a clam and generally you can talk to them, but [00:35:00] they need special treatment.

[00:35:01] And frankly, you may just have to say, right, this is not for you. And my third group, my third segment, a seaweed who basically sort of float along. So my job is often to, to make, to turn the seaweed into sponges because. If they're interested and they're engaged, they will lap it up so that that tends to be the segmentation.

[00:35:21] And I've used this for a couple of companies actually, when they say, well, hr, can you tell me how, what was the group like? And I'll say, it was like, you know, 7, 3, 1. So we had like seven spongy, three seaweed and a clam. It sounds like a menu, but I do think that's one way of just accepting that, firstly, that people will respond differently.

[00:35:42] But also to see the sponge is right. I've got you there. You know, that sorted. The seaweed. Okay, what is it that's gonna make you become, you know, more like a sponge and with the clam, what is it that I can perhaps get them to break out? And sometimes they are the data analysts, the data squirrels, but not [00:36:00] always, because sometimes the data people I work with are desperate to tell stories and are really good at telling stories.

[00:36:07] And conversely, sometimes the people who think they're. Can be really rubbish when it comes to actually, you know, telling a story because it comes all about them or whatever. So I've learned never necessarily to, to, to expect people to fit where I think they're gonna fit. But as I say, as a sort of general way of applying that, it's, it's actually been quite useful.

[00:36:27] Sarah: Mm. It's a really interesting way of thinking about it and I love how you've sneaked in a sort of storytelling way of thinking about the groups you're working

[00:36:36] It

[00:36:36] Sarah: very, very, me memorable. Isn't it? I really like that, so I. Tips for helping people who are listening to this and don't have the benefit of you being there in person in a workshop or whatever.

[00:36:51] Have you got tips for how they might start to use storytelling in their, in their work?

[00:36:57] Tas: Yeah. I think really sort of going back to, to what I said [00:37:00] before. My first thing is I have an expression which I will throw again at your, um, your listeners, Sarah, which is again talking about insight in, in the book.

[00:37:09] I'm a big fan of serendipity because that's how. Generally occur. If you look at great scientists, creative people, thinkers, it's often known as the three Bs bed, bath and bus. So you go to bed, you can't think of a problem to resolve. You had to resolve the problem. You wake up in the morning, suddenly eureka, you know, you having a bath like Archimedes did.

[00:37:30] So this is just one example that happened to me of serendipity, which was I was writing a speech for a client and I was talking about the brain. I was talking about attention span. Anyone who's listening, if you look at your keyboard, you'll see the letter n and m are next to each other. So I accidentally typed attention, spam with an M and I thought, oh, that's that year.

[00:37:49] I quite like that. So that's now become my shorthand. That's always good. Natural laughter is always good. Um, let's look at my shorthand for any, [00:38:00] any communication task you have. Your first goal is to avoid going into your audience's attention spam. 'cause we like to think that everything we say goes from my tension inbox, if you like, into your attention inbox.

[00:38:12] But again, we know neuroscientists tell us that 80, 90% will go into attention spam. So my first thing is always whatever you are doing, even before we started thinking that story, how are you going to stop what you are saying or writing? Going into your audience's attention span. So take stuff out, take the jargon out, take out 90% of the numbers, take out 90% of the bullet points because that will help you.

[00:38:38] That's, that's always my first sort of guide really. The second thing I've mentioned of the golden thread, which is try and think about hypothesis and arguments, and again, especially when I'm working with quantitative researchers who've just got a massive data, massive charts. As I said, you, you can't show everything to everyone.

[00:38:57] So at least give your audience [00:39:00] an argument. Give them a what if, what if you were to try this? What if you were to, you know, I don't know, reduce your price? What if you were to talk to a completely different audience or if you renamed your brand and then use that as a frame for your presentation or your, your argument or your, your data.

[00:39:17] And yes, you can have more than one phrase, that's fine. But what you don't do, as I say, is just throw everything. Somebody wants as a, again, as an ancient historian, someone wants about history. History is just one damn fact after another. And again, too often our presentations, especially not just, not just quantitative people, um, it is just one damn bit of data or one

[00:39:39] yes

[00:39:40] Tas: damn bullet point after another.

[00:39:42] So it's about finding, so again, I'll use this as, as a, as a tip. Just write down what if. So when you're writing your debrief or your speech, you know, what if we thought about this? What if we completely reframed? And then use that as your framework and then see [00:40:00] what data or what evidence fits that thread.

[00:40:04] Be ruthless about taking out everything that doesn't. And then see what that gives you. And I find that a useful sort of, absolutely way of giving people something to start with. Yeah,

[00:40:14] Sarah: I really like that. I'm gonna go away and I'm gonna go away and try and apply that to that whatever next situation is where I, I mean, it's all the time, isn't it?

[00:40:23] Actually, we need to tell stories all the time. It's, I mean,

[00:40:27] Tas: I have a whole section again as a film. I'm a huge film, uh, buff. So, where I live in North London, I was a, a trustee of a cinema, a mile up there called the Phoenix. The oldest continued running cinema in the country. So I'll say to people, think about how many books, plays, films, are what ifs.

[00:40:45] So my favorite example I'll ask you now, Sarah, is what if you woke up every day and it was the same day?

[00:40:49] Sarah: Oh, well it's Groundhog Day, isn't it?

[00:40:51] Tas: What if you woke up every day and it was the same day?

[00:40:53] Sarah: Ah, you can talk to me now.

[00:40:58] Tas: So if again, whether it's, you know, [00:41:00] animal Farm or Handmaid's Tale, you know, great stories are what ifs.

[00:41:03] Science fiction. So again, if you cast what. It automatically plugs into that storytelling part of the brand. That's

[00:41:12] Sarah: brilliant. I love it so much to explore there isn't there? I mean, it is just fascinating. It's endlessly fascinating because for all the reasons that we talked about Star, it's innately human and fascinating to us.

[00:41:25] Thank you. I'm gonna wrap things up with a final question that I ask all our guests with this being speak to the Human podcast. Speaking to you, Tas, as a human.

[00:41:36] Yes.

[00:41:37] Sarah: What's exciting you at the moment? What are you looking forward to and what's motivating you either you know, in your work or in in anything else?

[00:41:46] Tas: Well, I find myself at the last sort of 10 years having written six books. Um, I'm either writing a book, editing a book, or promoting a book. So at the moment I've seen to be doing all of those 'cause the consumer behavior book is out. [00:42:00] The insight book is still in, um, Smiths at the big airports. And for any stray classicists listening, the next book is going to be the classical marketing book.

[00:42:09] What did the Greeks and Romans ever teach us about marketing?

[00:42:12] Sarah: I'm looking forward to that one.

[00:42:14] Tas: Yeah, I mentioned. A lot of people seem to like it apart from my family who think I'm mad. So it's about, um, mythology. How can we use Greek myths to understand, you know, different typologies and segments. So, you know, are your audience more like Dsis or Apollo for example, or cyps or a disuse?

[00:42:34] Um, a bit about vocabulary 'cause I'm obsessed with words and etymology. And also about persuasion, which is again, rhetoric and some of the storytelling. So that's, that's one of my main things. Uh, the other thing is I'm continuing my interest in humor, so I have now dabbled in a bit of standup.

[00:42:50] Sarah: Really?

[00:42:51] Tas: Yeah.

[00:42:51] Ooh. Um, I have written in the past, but I did a course, uh, a what, a few months ago, and we've done a couple of gigs. Um, and I'm [00:43:00] writing some more stuff, some new stuff. So, uh, yeah, that's also on the plate.

[00:43:05] Sarah: Intriguing and

[00:43:06] Tas: it's intriguing. It's by far the most terrifying thing I've ever done.

[00:43:09] Sarah: I'm sure we've been talking about scary stuff, but this is like, that's another level of scary.

[00:43:13] Yeah, it's, it's,

[00:43:14] Tas: it's really good and it's great. It was great fun. There were 10 of us doing it and um, yeah, I did two nights and. And I didn't humiliate my children, which was the main goal,

[00:43:26] Sarah: which is hard just, you know, going out about your everyday business. It's, I don't mind being on stage trying to be a comedian, so congratulations.

[00:43:34] Tas: Yeah. I dunno how much more I, I wanna do a little bit more, but I'll see. 'cause I'm not quite sure what level I'll stop at, but it's been, it's been a great experience. And again, because I'm interested in humor. It's been quite interest looking at it if you like a, as a practitioner as well. So yeah, that's all happening.

[00:43:52] Um, so that'll keep me busy for a bit.

[00:43:54] Sarah: Oh, fantastic. Definitely. And this has been great. Um, if our listeners would like to [00:44:00] find out more about the work that you are doing, we'll share, um, uh, some links in the show notes. Where can people find you? What's a good way of finding your Um,

[00:44:09] Tas: I seem to sort of mainly make do with LinkedIn.

[00:44:11] Mm-hmm. So I'm taaz with lots of s in there, tsg on LinkedIn. Um, again, just look at, um, Amazon or other sites are available for the books. I know, as I said, at least one or two of them are in some of the bigger Smiths at the airports as well. If you wanna physical copy. Yeah, I think that's mainly it. Really

[00:44:30] Sarah: brilliant.

[00:44:31] And they're lovely books actually. They're really nicely, they're quite tactile, aren't they? Yes,

[00:44:35] Tas: a couple of them were, were bigger ones, but four of the six are what are called the Concise Advice. So they're like mole skin size. Yeah, so you can read them the ideas, you can read them like on a long train journey or a plane flight or something.

[00:44:46] So yeah, please do.

[00:44:47] Sarah: Perfect. I've so enjoyed this conversation. I mean, I am absolutely avid. Story lover from. Day one of me. So it's just wonderful to explore [00:45:00] these ideas, like dig into what that's about and uh, you know, how we might use it really, really effectively. And if anyone's

[00:45:06] Tas: interested, again, you find me either on LinkedIn, um, hopefully you'll have my Yahoo email as well.

[00:45:11] Please do send me your stories, ah, in stories that you've liked or even maybe stories of when you've tried to tell stories or stories of perhaps when clients haven't got it right.

[00:45:21] Story disaster. Yeah.

[00:45:24] Tas: I mean, I, I, I love collecting them because again, it just, for me is just partly just fascinating about seeing how people, you know, react to them.

[00:45:30] So yeah, please, by all means, do bombard me with your story.

[00:45:34] Sarah: That's excellent. Thank you so much, Tas. Really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you everyone for listening, and bye for [00:46:00] now.