Fraser Simpson on game-changing ethics engagement

[00:00:00] Sarah Abramson: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organisations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me and hearing from our brilliant guests.

[00:00:25] This episode of Speak to the Human is with Fraser Simpson, who is Associate General Counsel of Ethics, Governance and Compliance at the Wellcome Trust. Fraser has pioneered different and creative ways to help people do the right thing, bringing colleagues on board with risk, ethics and compliance by connecting with human motivation.

[00:00:44] He's led the way on demonstrating how to balance risk and compliance with empowering people and fundamentally showing colleagues that they are trusted. He talks about some of the creative campaigns that have broken the mould by taking a totally unexpected and different approach, [00:01:00] including Connie the puppet who embodies people's conscience.

[00:01:03] We explore what risk really means in an organisation, how to bring decision makers with you with doing things differently, and how and why it's so meaningful to create emotional connections that speak to the human. I really enjoyed hearing Fraser's thinking and I'm sure you will too. As always, please do drop me a line with your thoughts, feedback and suggestions for future guests.

[00:01:31] Hi Fraser, I'm so pleased to have you joining us today.

[00:01:34] Fraser Simpson: Hi Sarah, really, really good to be with you.

[00:01:36] Sarah Abramson: Um, to get things started, it'd be great if you could give us some background to the Wellcome Trust, because It's a unique organisation with, uh, truly kind of life changing work that you're doing. So it'd be great to hear a little bit about that before we get into the rest of the conversation.

[00:01:52] Fraser Simpson: Absolutely. So you're right. Wellcome is, uh, is a unique organisation. Um, and in some ways, it's many organisations in one, um, to [00:02:00] describe us really we're a global charitable foundation with a vision for a healthier future for everyone. And we do that, in simple terms, by supporting science to solve, um, what we see as the urgent health challenges facing everyone.

[00:02:14] And we do that in three key ways, really. One is by funding uh, research, uh, in scientific endeavor. Uh, another is through influence and bringing the right minds and voices together to try and shape, uh, science policy. And the other is around engagement and engagement with the public. Um, and when I say we're a number of organisations in one, that really means we, we operate as a grant making philanthropist, um, We also, uh, have a, a, an influencing function, but we also importantly run, uh, the Wellcome Collection, which is our free to access, um, museum and library, uh, on the Euston Road.

[00:02:50] And that's a really important piece around bringing together that connection between the public and science.

[00:02:57] Sarah Abramson: That's fantastic. I mean, it's such a, it's such an interesting [00:03:00] organisation and I, I think, um, it must be really exciting to be part of the work that you do. So tell us a bit about your role and, um, and what that involves.

[00:03:09] Fraser Simpson: Yes, so my role was created, um, a few years ago, uh, really to focus on integrity behaviours. So how do we make sure that each of us within Wellcome, um, are well equipped to make the right choices in moments that matter. Um, and I think that really comes from, uh, the nature of our organisation. We don't have shareholders to hold us accountable.

[00:03:34] We don't have, uh, customers to stop buying our products. We don't have those ordinary accountability mechanisms that many organisations have and therefore it's incumbent on us to make sure we design our own, that help us to achieve our purpose, but also to provide the right level of challenge to make sure we're going about things in the right way.

[00:03:55] Sarah Abramson: Fantastic. And yeah, that's super interesting, isn't it? Because having to think [00:04:00] about things differently, because you don't have that sort of typical pressure from shareholders or from, you know, end of year accounts or whatever, it sort of opens a door to thinking about things a bit differently, I suppose.

[00:04:12] And what's that been like as an experience?

[00:04:15] Fraser Simpson: It does. In many sectors, particularly the more heavily regulated sectors, I'm thinking of financial services, for example, culture is a really strong, uh, regulated activity. Uh, but regulators really try to drive exactly how you do that, and that, I think, can stifle creativity and end up with a homogenous way of trying to do things and tick box exercises.

[00:04:41] And that really, to me, isn't the way that you drive behaviour change in an organisation and it isn't really what you want to be doing. I think having that freedom and flexibility to be able to be creative can lead to some really exciting ways of doing things. And some really positive ways that you might not [00:05:00] be allowed to do in other organisations.

[00:05:02] Sarah Abramson: Where do you start with that thinking? What's kind of your first concept of how you might change things or move things in a particular direction?

[00:05:12] Fraser Simpson: I think it's trying to understand really what the key risks or opportunities are for the organisation. To understand really what the behaviours of each of us individually and all of us collectively should be to do that.

[00:05:31] And really that links to our purpose and I think it's really helpful in a purpose driven organisation like Wellcome because we can really try and understand how acting in a particular way helps deliver. That greater purpose where your purpose is to make money for shareholders I think that's that's more difficult to do or at least it's less exciting to do And I think when you've when you've understood that You [00:06:00] can try to apply an analysis that says well, what are what are the gaps?

[00:06:03] What's the gap between current and future? What does that look like? And how can we be creative in trying to close that gap? How can we go beyond the provision of a manual? Yeah. Or the provision of some click e-learning. Yeah. Uh, that doesn't really shift the dial in the way we think because it hasn't engaged the mindset of staff.

[00:06:27] It hasn't got people going ah, yeah, if I do this and I do it well, this is helping us to achieve that bigger purpose. Therefore I'm in.

[00:06:36] Sarah Abramson: Do you feel that motivation is, uh, your ally in all of this? Because, because you're part of a purpose driven organisation with such a strong sort of mission, is that, is that cultural context helpful for that?

[00:06:50] Fraser Simpson: I think it absolutely can be, um, and very often it is. That's not to say it's always easy to pull, pull that through, um, it's quite difficult in pretty much every [00:07:00] context to make how to use the fire extinguisher relevant to your bigger purpose or GDPR relevant to your bigger purpose. And that's where I think the creativity in how you approach it and how you play with it.

[00:07:13] Um, becomes important, but I think if you can, if you can bypass the detail and connect through to that bigger purpose, it becomes so much easier because you've captured the mindset, if for us as an organisation, we have 1000 people, um, it's not the sort of place that you go to because you just want a job.

[00:07:34] It's the sort of place that people work because they buy into that bigger mission. And so if you can tap into that, the job's half done.

[00:07:41] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. Absolutely. What's, what's your workforce like or your sort of colleague base in terms of makeup and personality types and how does that add up into the sort of organisational culture?

[00:07:53] Fraser Simpson: I mean, it's a huge variety within Wellcome, a really diverse organisation, ranging from those with, you know, [00:08:00] significant science backgrounds, those with charity sector backgrounds, those that have come from industry, those working in the Wellcome Collection that bring a creative and artistic perspective, those working as visitor experience people on our museum and gallery floor.

[00:08:15] So a really, really big array of people. We also have a significant investments team. Um, and so you can imagine. There are a number of different sort of microcultures in one. Um, and it's almost impossible, therefore, to describe, you know, the typical Wellcome employee, um, or the typical Wellcome day, because it's so different for everybody.

[00:08:41] And again, that, that makes it really challenging, but also really interesting in how you make things relevant for everybody.

[00:08:48] Sarah Abramson: Absolutely. So give us some examples of some of the ways that you've tried to do that around where you've tried to engage colleagues with ethics or compliance or risk.

[00:08:58] Fraser Simpson: We tried to do it in a number of ways [00:09:00] with, uh, ethics and compliance, um, and risk, um, and, and really try to appeal to the relevance of what they, what everybody does as their day job. This was our, our first foray really, um, into our then code of conduct. We, we really tried to pull out as many real life examples that, that individuals could connect to whether or not it related to their actual job. or jobs that they could easily connect to because they see or feel or hear.

[00:09:32] Um, and I think that that was a very successful starting point for an organisation that haven't really tried to do that before. And by making things relevant, by including real staff in our learning programs, um, trying to make that personal connection, I think we, we, we drove an initial mindset shift, uh, which was really important.

[00:09:52] We've now moved on to being much more brave. Um, and trying to take an approach that's much [00:10:00] more sort of radical, I guess for our organisation. That's never been done before, um, within Wellcome. I don't think it's really been done before by anybody. Um, and so what we've, we've done, um, is to create a, a puppet, uh, that represents, uh, everybody's conscience, called Connie.

[00:10:17] Um, and by doing that, I think we, we've, really sort of captured the imagination of staff. Um, we've gone way beyond the diversity of our, uh, our staff population by, um, creating a, a pink haired puppet. And I think, I think by injecting that dose of fun and engagement, we've been able to, to, to lift things up another level.

[00:10:40] You know, people have said to me, my goodness, This is the first time I've ever heard people talking about a code of ethics. That's just ordinarily just boring, but here we are with people talking about it. And I think whatever it is you're trying to embed across an organisation culturally, what you're striving for is to get some sort of interest or buzz [00:11:00] around it, because otherwise it just becomes, it just becomes part of the, part of the noise.

[00:11:05] Sarah Abramson: It's that spark, isn't it? It's that connection. And like you say, you're sort of taking a risk with how you approach something when you do. I mean, you are embodying the concept of risk that you're trying to talk about. You're doing it yourself.

[00:11:18] Fraser Simpson: Well, and I sort of feel in many ways, and this is particularly true for our funding, but when it comes to risk, Part of Wellcome's purpose is to take risk.

[00:11:28] If we can't, who can? We're so privileged to be in a position, um, where we're an endowed charity. Um, we have a lot of money, um, and part of our role in achieving our purpose is to take those risks that perhaps others can't or won't. That's not to say to be reckless, but it's to be creative. Not to say, ooh, you know, what, what might happen if we do it, but also to say, well, what might happen if we don't do it?

[00:11:56] Sarah Abramson: Right. And that not doing something differently is [00:12:00] a risk as well. Absolutely. Just sticking with the same way of doing something or, or sticking with the same kind of approach that we've always used or the same thinking or a kind of embedded approach to doing something. You might be missing out on diverse perspectives. You might be missing out on different ways of thinking, you know, cognitive diversity and cultural diversity and, and, and all of that, but organisations struggle with that because. Well, it is risk. So how have you gone about trying to shift decision makers to back you, but also people to come on board and to support you with doing things differently?

[00:12:37] Fraser Simpson: It's a great question. And I certainly can't remotely claim all of that credit for myself. There's there's a whole a whole team of people that across Wellcome working around risk in particular that have a shared view, but it's really around trying to to, to reframe our approach to risk as being not one of constraint, not one of being the department that says, [00:13:00] no, you can't.

[00:13:01] Um, but being one of confidence. It's a risk is about understanding what the outcomes might be and the likelihoods and the impacts. Um, but about using that understanding to have confidence in the decision that you do take. Yes, there's a risk here, but I've thought about it and I'm comfortable with it. So off we go.

[00:13:24] Um, and I think, I think that's quite an empowering way to, to think about risk.

[00:13:28] Sarah Abramson: Definitely. I, I think it might be useful to take a step back and try and define, if we can, what we mean by risk. How do you conceive it? Does it span everything? I know you're a lawyer by background, we haven't really talked about you very much here Fraser, but maybe, maybe kind of give us that perspective, and what do you mean by risk?

[00:13:48] Fraser Simpson: Yeah, I think risk, I mean there's a funny definition of risk, which is the effect of uncertainty on objectives, I mean, it's not really written in English, what do we mean in English? It's, [00:14:00] it's, it's about something happening that might take you off course. In a different direction. Um, and so for me, risk management is about thinking that through and being aware of those things that might happen to blow you off course.

[00:14:14] And then applying that sort of critical lens that says, well, what, what's absolutely key here? What do we really need to be on top of? Because if that happens, it's a real problem. Or if that happens, wow, that's a real opportunity and we need to grab it. And then sort of embracing the rest and saying, well, maybe we can live with that.

[00:14:33] And I, I think that's really important, but it's, as you say, I'm a, I'm a lawyer. It's not a natural way of thinking for lawyers. Most lawyers want to, um, sort of legal everything to death, um, and try to minimise risk. And often there is value in that. Often, often when you're, you're doing something that's quite scary, you do want to minimise risk.

[00:14:53] Certainly, you know, when I bought a house, I didn't want to, you know, willingly take on a whole load of risk that it might fall down. I wanted [00:15:00] to, uh, you know, I wanted to make sure that I, I understood that and I'd covered all of that off. But actually if your purpose is to be doing something, and achieving something, it's about taking risk.

[00:15:13] Um, we, we could, we could eliminate risk entirely at Wellcome and just put all of our money in the bank and never do anything. But then actually even that is not really eliminating risk because there's a great risk that we do nothing. So it's around just understanding that thinking about it. Um, and then and then Being positive in how you act on it.

[00:15:34] Sarah Abramson: Absolutely. I think it's making me think of work we've done with other organisations as well Channel 4 is a good example where if there's a framework or an understanding that's been put in place it ideally has a the effect of then liberating people if they are safe within that framework, then to take the risks that they need to take, whether that's a creative risk or whether it's an innovative risk.

[00:15:58] Fraser Simpson: Exactly that. And there was [00:16:00] the wonderful Netflix culture statement that Netflix do. And they had identified, of course, their key risk was not being creative and tying themselves up in a bureaucratic mess would stifle creativity. So that sort of tended towards a no rules rule. That's an extreme example, but you can really see that in a creative business.

[00:16:24] If what you do is be creative, don't tie everybody in compliance knots. Be make, you know, really make sure that wherever you're introducing, um, hard controls and bureaucracy, that it's really needed. Because otherwise you're going to strangle your own business. Yes. Yes. And that's a really important and really interesting outlook to sort of think that way.

[00:16:45] Sarah Abramson: We did talk about that quite a bit with Christian Hunt when we recorded the episode with him about if you ask people to sit through hours of training about compliance risks that aren't really relevant to them, or that they can't really [00:17:00] relate to, or that just take a lot of patience, then you lose them.

[00:17:04] Fraser Simpson: Oh, completely. And that's because we're all human beings. We have a tendency to try to look at organisations as systems and processes and assume that we'll do things because we're told. And we might do things because we're told, but we don't understand or engage or learn because we're told. We go through training, but we don't learn.

[00:17:28] We don't act differently. It's got to be an exercise that we're engaged in. It can't be done to us.

[00:17:36] Sarah Abramson: Yeah, so some of the creative stuff that you've done. So Connie, you mentioned and I know you've done other really great projects with that are creative and different. Have you seen the effect of that? Have people become a little bit more engaged or confident with with what is understood as acceptable risk?

[00:17:58]

[00:17:58] Fraser Simpson: Yeah, I think that's right. [00:18:00] It's difficult because culture change takes time. No matter how brave you are, it doesn't shift overnight. Um, what does shift overnight, uh, are the conversations that you hear. Uh, and that's great because you start hearing conversations that didn't happen before.

[00:18:16] And for me, really is the sort of metric that, that talks to a culture in progress. Are you hearing conversations about really important stuff that otherwise wouldn't be happening? Are you sparking those? Um, and so I love the fact with, so with, with Connie, for example, we have a puppet and the puppet is a representation of, of your conscience and therefore ethics.

[00:18:41] I get sent photographs of where we've put Connie across the building. And that's people engaging with it. I hear, hear conversations saying, what would Connie do? In the lunch queue. Those sorts of things. Um, and, um, While that doesn't necessarily say things have changed, it does say this is now forefront of [00:19:00] mind.

[00:19:00] This is something that people are engaged with. Mindset is changing, um, and that can only head in the right direction. But it still takes time. It's still important not to leave this as a, as a marketing exercise. That's very easy to sort of say, well, oh look, we've sparked some conversations. There's also you know, an opportunity gap to be addressed.

[00:19:21] If you've got people motivated to do the right thing and they know what to do, but they don't have the means, it's around how do you make it easy for people? How do you provide the right tools to enable them to be able to behave the right way? Um, so an example of that, um, within the Wellcome Collection, which is our, uh, museum and gallery, um, we obviously need to have robust safeguarding procedures.

[00:19:45] And we found quite quickly that, of course, having those accessible on desktop computers wasn't particularly useful for our visitor experience staff who were standing on the, the floor of the museum.

[00:19:55] Sarah Abramson: Ah, okay. Yeah.

[00:19:56] Fraser Simpson: And they, of course, are the ones that in the moment that matters when a [00:20:00] safeguarding incident is happening, need to know what to do.

[00:20:02] Sarah Abramson: Mm-Hmm. .

[00:20:02] Fraser Simpson: And of course they don't have a computer in front of them.

[00:20:04] Sarah Abramson: Mm-Hmm. .

[00:20:05] Fraser Simpson: So what we did was to design, uh, a, a mobile based, uh, safeguarding app, uh, which is really a, a, a, a sort of a, a workflow, a decision tree, uh, that's automated through a, a mobile app. Uh, that takes you through the moment that you've identified a potential problem.

[00:20:22] And what your next steps as the person handling that would be, with the ability to click buttons and it says, you know, you need to alert so and so the safeguarding lead, click here and it will do that for you. Um, and that sort of approach of how do you make things easy, I think is really important.

[00:20:39] How did you arrive at that kind of insight that that was one of the things that you needed to do?

[00:20:44] To be honest, I think it's it's a combination of thinking about the organisation and just experience within an organisation. So you learn from your mistakes, you learn from why aren't things happening? We learnt very quickly from pushing out digital [00:21:00] Online learning to our organisation, that actually it was much harder to get completion levels as high within the The Wellcome Collection.

[00:21:09] Um, and you sort of put your hand on your forehead and go, Oh, of course, well it's because actually those people are lucky enough not to be sat staring at a screen all day like me. Um, and, and so it's really just sort of putting those pieces together. And some of that comes just through time within an organisation, talking to other people.

[00:21:25] It's really just about sort of empathising and understanding, um, who your audience is, who your people are.

[00:21:32] I mean, I noticed from sort of having an understanding of some of the campaigns and work that you've done that you have been exceptionally good at really tuning into the audience. And one of the things that stood out from that is the, you've had a trust your judgment strap line to, to some of the work.

[00:21:49] Um, and I think that says a huge amount of particularly when you've got, you know, you've got a real range of colleagues as you've talked about, and you've got some people who are incredibly experienced and, um, [00:22:00] very, you know, very, very qualified, you know, used to, high status leadership positions, but you've got a workforce that spans a lot of different roles and everybody, whatever role they're in, needs to feel that they are playing a key part. It doesn't matter, kind of conception of hierarchy. It's about every single person matters in an organisation, and that's really important, but you are having a grown up dialogue with them and saying, we trust you, you're here because we trust you, we know you can do a great job. So here's how we're going to help you to do the things that we actually need you to do.

[00:22:35] That's exactly right. And that's central to a human centred approach. Um, and I think from a compliance perspective, oddly, sort of mature approach is quite rare. So from a compliance perspective, invariably, uh, the, the, you know, the standard approach is you're all bad and you need to be trained, which is at best an [00:23:00] incredibly patronising way to deal with a group of invariably well meaning, very capable people. Um, our approach was to flip that on its head and to say, actually, you all know this stuff already. We're just going to help you. We're going to provide you with useful tools to be able to bring that out when you are struggling. And I think from a human centered perspective and from an effectiveness perspective, that has to be the right approach.

[00:23:28] Completely agree. And I think what is fantastic is having somebody that's in your position where you've got the different ways of thinking, you are innovative, you're willing to take risks, but you get the difference that it makes that you are passionate about genuinely shifting mindsets and engaging people and helping people understand why this stuff matters, rather than, oh, we have to do this to demonstrate, you know, that we can tick the box. And, um, it's that kind of difference. And I do wonder, I'd like to talk to you about, um, [00:24:00] bringing decision makers on board with doing something that feels riskier, because I feel like that's where some organisations get stymied. And I don't know whether you feel that you're lucky, uh, Wellcome that you've had that support from the beginning, or if you've had to bring people on a journey, decision makers, on a journey with you to persuade them, but either way, do you have thoughts that you would share with people who feel stuck with that, where it's difficult to make that case to decision makers, maybe decision makers are just interested in ticking the box and showing that they are, you know, compliant and, and, and that that's been the culture.

[00:24:36] How might they shift that decision making, uh, thinking and willingness?

[00:24:43] Yeah, I think whatever organisation you're in, uh, you have to, you have to bring people. There will, in any, in any group of people, no matter how forward thinking the organisation, there are going to be some, some forward thinkers, Some laggards and a, and a sort of floating middle ground that'll come with you if you, if you, uh, [00:25:00] persuade them well enough.

[00:25:01] Um, I, I think there's a, a caveat that, as I mentioned earlier, there are various sort of regulated sectors where there's a, culturally across the sector, um, quite often pushed by regulators, there's a real need to be demonstrating tick box compliance. Um, and that makes it a particular challenge. And you can understand that where somebody's neck is on the block.

[00:25:23] Thank you. Um, you know, you can really understand why they want really robust assurance and certainty that these sorts of things have been done and all the boxes are ticked and done up with a bow. I think outside of that though, it's about really trying to convince people of the benefit of the long term change.

[00:25:42] That actually, all you're really doing by box ticking is certifying a proxy for change, and invariably a bad proxy. So if my proxy for people having learned how to deal with a [00:26:00] particular compliance topic is that they've done a click through e-learning module, that's really only certifying that people have done what they've been asked.

[00:26:09] It doesn't really tell me about any levels of engagement and it certainly doesn't tell me about any levels of learning or any change to behaviors thereafter. Um, and I think if you care about the organisation and you can bring it through to why are we doing this? Well, it's because we're about delivering a broader purpose and the actions of us each individually talk to the collective actions of the organisation.

[00:26:36] Then I think it becomes quite a powerful argument And I think that's really important It's easy to convince people off the back of a crisis that compliance needs to be done, but invariably that talks to a a recoil into tick box stuff. The real challenge is how do you persuade people when there's [00:27:00] no crisis?

[00:27:00] And how do you persuade people off the back of a crisis to do the longer term response? That's really difficult. Um, but yeah, I'd like to think that there's enough organisations out there thinking slightly differently, um, and doing creative things that Others might be inspired to.

[00:27:19] Sarah Abramson: Have there been any particular things that work well for you with being able to demonstrate effectiveness?

[00:27:25] It's a really hard question.

[00:27:26] I guess, is it possible to measure and evaluate? I mean, like you say, completions on an LMS don't, don't mean anything really. Like, are there ways that we can tell whether there's been some sort of longer term change in behaviour or better engagement with culture?

[00:27:46] Fraser Simpson: I mean, I think there are, I think there are measures that you can, you can take and you can pick out a whole array of of different proxies. Uh, I think part of the danger is, is looking at statistics [00:28:00] as being the truth, um, when in actual fact, um, what you need to be looking at goes far beyond that. So there are, there are unmeasurables. There's this intangible cultural shift. There's the, a buzz perhaps. Um, and so I think, I think, I think while metrics and measures can be very helpful in talking to a change in trajectory. You've got to be careful to not let that data be the whole story.

[00:28:29] Sarah Abramson: I completely agree. I think we're, we live in a very data driven world and that can be very helpful in many ways, but I think sometimes we can go too far down that line of thinking, Oh, if we've got hard numbers, that means that those numbers are meaningful and we don't question them enough, but also that we have, it's easier to ignore the narrative stuff, the qualitative stuff and the stuff that's like more nuanced or intangible or just frankly human, where there's the story around it, but [00:29:00] the story might not have numbers attached to it.

[00:29:02] And I think it's an ongoing challenge for, for all of us, right? The work in this kind of space.

[00:29:06] Fraser Simpson: I think it is. The other piece around you know, ethics and compliance is the way, you know, we're not working, um, around sort of averages. It's not, oh, well, you know, we're sort of 80 percent of the way there and it's great.

[00:29:19] You could, you could be, you know, have every single person in the organisation behaving impeccably, but something may still go wrong. Yes. And, and, and that's, that's okay because we're groups of human beings and things will go wrong. Um, and that's why this sort of cultural piece is also so important as to, how you then end up reacting to that, and how you, how you respond, how you don't bury your head in the sand, how you take a proactive approach, um, and those sorts of things again don't necessarily shine out in, in average statistics over a period of time.

[00:29:51] Sarah Abramson: Mm. Brilliant. So what are your ambitions kind of going forward for continuing this [00:30:00] innovative approach and embedding different ways of thinking and, um, new, new ways of taking risks?

[00:30:08] Fraser Simpson: Well, I think, you know, we've, we've taken some steps, um, through puppeteering with shifting the bravery at Wellcome. It'd be lovely to see if, if we can do that in other areas.

[00:30:18] Um, for me, I'm, I'm excited at seeing. the reaction of others globally to this, um, seeing what we've done transcending cultural and language barriers, um, and being an approach that really works on a global level. Um, I think, you know, for, for me, from, for ambitions, it would be lovely to just connect with other organisations that either do or want to think in this sort of creative way.

[00:30:50] There's something incredibly fun about taking what everybody thinks is a boring topic and thinking about it creatively. It takes away the [00:31:00] expectation that there's going to be an upside and it makes it even more fun when there is.

[00:31:04] Sarah Abramson: It's almost more fun, isn't it? Like, to take the most boring thing you could possibly think of, whatever that is, like you said earlier, a fire extinguisher, and, like, really make it fun, like, how do we get creative with it?

[00:31:13] Fraser Simpson: Exactly, I mean, it's, it's, look at, look at, um, marketing, and, you know, you can try and, try and sell sports cars, and it's actually, you know, those are exciting, or chocolate bars, or whatever it is that gets you excited, those are exciting, but, you know, a code of ethics? That's, you know, but, but if you can do something interesting, that, that's great.

[00:31:31] Um, and when you can bring creativity into it, it's fun. Um, it really is fun. Uh, I think there was that Einstein quote of, Um, creativity is intelligence, having fun. Um, and, and I, I think, I think there's a lot in that.

[00:31:45] Sarah Abramson: I'm interested in what you were saying about transcending, um, cultural and social barriers and that kind of thing. And, um, uh, particularly with the Connie project, I think the idea that you could have um, a way of [00:32:00] communicating with people that connects with people across different cultures, different countries, different ways of thinking. That's really, really hard to do. Um, is that a risk in itself? What do you, how do you approach that kind of thing?

[00:32:14] Do you test things out before you go too far with them or get a read back from different audiences first, or was it just kind of diving and taking, taking the risk and thinking, let's see how it lands.

[00:32:25] Fraser Simpson: Yeah, with Connie we sort of dived in and took the risk, but with a sensible degree of socialising across the microcultures within the organisation.

[00:32:36] So I was pretty confident that that was going to land well. Um, I guess what, what surprised me, uh, was the extent of the global feedback we've had from, uh, Uzbekistan, China, Costa Rica, Brazil. Where there are very different cultures, organisational cultures, languages. And yet, [00:33:00] the approach we were taking so clearly resonated.

[00:33:03] Uh, and I think that was something I hadn't fully understood. Um, but it rather, rather made me think of the scope for doing this sort of project in a global organisation. Many global organisations. really struggle, uh, to communicate because the, the language, the style, the tone, the visuals really need to be different in so many different territories that it's very hard to do that in a consistent way.

[00:33:37] Um, and I, I think there's so much, um, that you could play with, uh, when you get away from communicating just through content and language.

[00:33:48] Sarah Abramson: Mm. Did can you expand on that? What do you, what are you thinking of?

[00:33:52] Fraser Simpson: Well, I, I, I think of things that I remember from childhood that still stick in my mind. Mm-Hmm. that [00:34:00] are music.

[00:34:00] Sarah Abramson: We love music.

[00:34:01] Fraser Simpson: , things that stick in my mind are, are humor. Mm. All these sorts of sensory ways of communicating that aren't, here's a manual that you need to go and read. Yeah. Um, and I think by being clever around. How people respond to all forms of communication can be really, really impactful.

[00:34:25] Sarah Abramson: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:34:26] Fraser Simpson: And I think thinking that through is really important.

[00:34:29] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:34:29] Fraser Simpson: And can, can really open whole new dimensions in the way that the workforce responds to things.

[00:34:35] Sarah Abramson: And it's a joy, isn't it? Kind of breaking free of very conventional, like you say, boring ways of, Trying to do things so that they feel, um, like, you know, appropriate and that we've done them properly and that this was, you know, rubber stamping it correctly so that it's going to go across the CFO's desk and everyone's going to be pleased with it.

[00:34:57] Um, and actually taking ourselves back [00:35:00] to, uh, What is it that opens our minds, makes us think about something properly? What brings that kind of curiosity, that real human imagination, ideas, different ways of thinking. And like you say, there's sort of creative ways of exploring, of using music, of opening our minds to different, different ways of doing things.

[00:35:21] Fraser Simpson: I always think back to one of the standout sessions for me at the Speak to the Human event a couple of years ago. Um, were musicians who asked for, uh, the group to come up with a song, um, and, and how that made them feel. And the group came up with the James Bond theme tune and they played it, dum da da dum dum.

[00:35:43] How does that make you feel? Oh, anxious, tense, excited, all of those emotions. Um, And the res the question then came back to the group, well, what's the opposite of that? And the response was, oh, relaxed, calm, soothed. Well, what, what [00:36:00] music represents, uh, represents all of those? A nursery rhyme. The musicians then transposed the James Bond theme, tune into nursery rhyme music, um, or a lullaby.

[00:36:12] And, um, and played that. And of course, the, the, the innate reaction was so different, but to the same notes, just played in a different way. I think, I think understanding those sorts of dimensions around communication.

[00:36:25] Sarah Abramson: It's so, it's so incredible.

[00:36:27] Fraser Simpson: How can you influence someone's engagement and response? And actually that make them act in a particular way.

[00:36:34] I think that's really powerful.

[00:36:35] Sarah Abramson: Completely. And, uh, I think, you know, the most creative and effective marketing and advertising are ways of understanding humans and our emotional responses to things. And you see You know, a story arc we have at Acteon every year we have a marketing week, which is, uh, a week where I have fun, like, uh, doing crazy things with colleagues and I usually split them into teams so that [00:37:00] we can kind of do something fun and creative in our lunch hours and then play it back at the week and this year's theme I had storytelling.

[00:37:06] So we're talking about the storytelling arc and how you can use emotion in storytelling and how, you know, so we looked at some adverts. And how ads even really, really short ads have used the storytelling arc in different ways. And then I'd set this task for people to go away with like a, a theme to create an advert and use emotion, use something different, maybe have a twist, but have a storytelling arc. And it was just so fun seeing what they came back with, but they were all really effective ways of engaging with emotions. And that's That's like fundamentally, I think what, what works.

[00:37:43] Fraser Simpson: I think that's right. And, and, you know, I'm no marketing expert, um, but I am somebody that buys stuff. I'm a human that's sold to, and you don't sell me something by just showing me a video of somebody using it.

[00:37:57] I also don't learn in that way. You [00:38:00] know, I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, um, learn to drive by somebody sending me off with a pamphlet of the highway code, you learn by doing and experimenting and engaging with a human being Um, uh, so I, I think there's, there's so much in it.

[00:38:18] Sarah Abramson: Yes, definitely. And I think it's just fantastic to see how you are picking that up at Wellcome and bringing it to life in a way that is creative, different, like I said earlier, you kind of lead living the bravery and the risk through how you're doing campaigns to colleagues. And that's, that's wonderful.

[00:38:35] Fraser Simpson: Thank you.

[00:38:36] Sarah Abramson: This has been fantastic having this conversation. I've really enjoyed it. And thank you so much for the time and the insights. Um, I wanted to finish with a question about you, Fraser, you speaking to you as a human.

[00:38:49] So what's exciting you at the moment? What are you looking forward to? What's motivating you either inside work or outside?

[00:38:58] Fraser Simpson: I mean, within work, I [00:39:00] think, you know, I'm still close enough to having, um, launched Connie that, that, that's still particularly exciting for me. And, and I guess it's around the opportunities to think about how we make the organisation as a whole as human as possible.

[00:39:16] Um, put it, putting the human at the center of everything we do. You know, we talk a lot about, in any organisation, we talk about human resources, but do we talk about, you know, Human risk and human law and human operations and human whatever it is you do. Um, and I think that's really important and it's, it, for me, it's, it, it's around trying to make sure that we're communicating in a way that inspires what we want people to do as opposed to communicating what we want to say. I think that's particularly relevant to lawyers and, and other, um, technical bods within organisations that tend to want to. Um, as opposed to, [00:40:00] um, as opposed to think through what the change needs to be. Um, so that, that I find really exciting.

[00:40:07] Um, outside of work, I'm, I'm really excited. I sit on the board of a small NGO, Railway Children. Um, and we, we're having a very exciting time. We work with street kids in the UK and India and Tanzania. And, um, we've just been through a, a change in leadership with a, a really exciting culture that's evolving in the organisation. Uh, lots of exciting, uh, activities there. And that, that's brilliant to be involved with because it really brings back some of my connection to the organisations I worked in previously in the international development sector. I find that really exciting.

[00:40:42] Sarah Abramson: Oh, that's fantastic what a brilliant thing to be involved with. Well, thank you so much Fraser. I really appreciate it. It's been it's been fun, it's been interesting. It's been very thought provoking and thank you so much I look forward to hearing more about all your projects and Yeah, [00:41:00] thanks so much for your time.

[00:41:00] Fraser Simpson: Thanks Sarah