Lesley Woods on finding human connection under pressure

[00:00:00] Sarah: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organizations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me in hearing from our brilliant guest.

[00:00:24] Lesley Woods is a military leader and media strategist who leads communications for the UK's Ministry of Defense, as well as serving as a senior officer in the Royal Air Force Reserves. As you'll hear, her career has taken her around the world and into situations which range from the life threatening to the life affirming from hostile to humanitarian.

[00:00:45] She has seen and experienced firsthand how humans respond under extreme pressure. In this conversation, she shares fascinating stories about how to bond across cultures and language differences, how to comfort people when they fear for their [00:01:00] lives, how to encourage personal messages from people who might not want to let their guard down, and how to help yourself and others get emotional reactions under control.

[00:01:09] She talks about growing as a leader to gain the confidence to lift up those around you and spot those times when you can support less experienced colleagues to take an opportunity. We also talk about different ways to tell stories, including combining words and images and how messages are formulated and crafted.

[00:01:28] Lesley talks about learning to tell your own story and how she keeps a notebook to jot down thoughts and reflections as they happen. This is a window into a world most of us haven't experienced, but which shed slides on the same human connections that we are all familiar with. As always, please do like, subscribe, and share the podcast.

[00:01:47] Drop me a message with any feedback or ideas for future guests.

[00:01:55] Hi Lesley. I'm delighted to have you joining us on the podcast today. I've heard [00:02:00] you speaking a couple of times at conferences where you shared incredibly powerful stories from your work in the armed forces and some really profound reflections that you've had about human connection and communication.

[00:02:13] In those contexts, and I've so enjoyed listening to those and they've really stayed with me as stories. So I'm looking forward to asking you a bit more about those and talking to you about your experiences generally. So welcome to speak to the Human.

[00:02:26] Lesley: Thank you very much for having me. It's fabulous.

[00:02:28] Sarah: It'd be great to start with you just having the chance to tell us a bit about the work that you do and and your background.

[00:02:33] Lesley: So I'm often referred to as the hybrid at work because I actually have two jobs. So I am a civil servant in the Ministry of Defense, and I work in the Director of Defense Communications. But for the last 18 years, I've always also been a part-time volunteer reserve officer in the RAF Media Reserves. So I've been going around the world in uniform and then sitting in a civilian suit and office in London.

[00:02:55] So it's very much a dual role and having the strategic overview that you would [00:03:00] get from being in a, in a government department, and then sort of the tactical lessons that you get from being. Someone literally in the dirt on the ground.

[00:03:07] Sarah: Wow. So it's taking you to all sorts of different places, locations, situations.

[00:03:11] What, what kinds of ends of the spectrum

[00:03:14] Lesley: has that, has that included? The most fun I had was an American Exchange tour with the US Air Force. I absolutely loved that. Hanging out with them and learning their lessons. I got to spend two weeks on a ascension island, which is essentially a subtropical island.

[00:03:27] With lots of little Finding Nemo baby fishes and some beautiful stars because there's no light pollution and it's, it's one of the very few birthplaces of the green turtle so you can see them hatching in the summer. That was quite fabulous and obviously I have been to some slightly more dangerous places, the Central African Republic, Afghanistan, and then obviously a few exercises in things like snow and desert.

[00:03:49] I did get to spend a couple of weeks on exercise with the US Air Force in the base where they filmed the first top gun. That was quite cool. That's very, that's quite starstruck by that. Basically a giant piece of sand in California. [00:04:00] But it was really cool just to say that that's where they filmed the first film, so Wow.

[00:04:04] A bit of a Tom Cruise fan, so

[00:04:06] Sarah: I love it. Of course. I mean, you have to be right. It sounds like there's no such thing as a typical day when you are stationed overseas, but is there a typical day when you are in the uk?

[00:04:15] Lesley: There's a typical day in the pattern of life, but the thing I love about my job is you never know what's gonna come into your inbox because I work on what we ly call non-New media projects.

[00:04:26] So everything that is documentaries, film partnerships, working with influencers, anything where the armed forces are doing something slightly different in engagement. Whether that's through sport or books or even just appearing on things like the One show usually comes through my desk. So you can, you might be commuting into an office and sitting at a desk with a laptop, but you never know what's gonna pop in.

[00:04:47] So I, I do quite like the variety of that.

[00:04:49] Sarah: Amazing. And how did you come to doing this role?

[00:04:52] Lesley: It was kind of a series of happy accidents, so I'm, I'm actually third generation military. My grandmother was in the same unit as the [00:05:00] former. Her Majesty the Queen. In World War II and then Oh wow. And then my, my mum joined up as a dental nurse in the Women's Royal Air Force back in the day, and she was actually a poster girl for recruitment, and gran actually was also used in sort of adverts to try and get women to join up.

[00:05:15] So I like to say that I'm kind of the third generation influencer in that, in that sphere. But I have some very big change to fill in, some lovely footsteps to follow in.

[00:05:24] Sarah: That's fantastic. And I mean, as I mentioned, I think you've got some incredible stories about, and I'm sure I've only heard just the surface of those, but that include the things that I think bring to light how people respond and communicate under pressure in particular.

[00:05:41] Can you share a story that highlights that and maybe what you learned from it?

[00:05:45] Lesley: So I've got a few. Which one shall I give you? I've got kind of my origin story if you like, which is kind of why, why I think I'm in the right job. I mean, it, it's difficult when you serve any length of time in any job. You always have those mini crisis of confidence, but of [00:06:00] imposter syndrome when you step up to a new rank.

[00:06:02] And for a little while, about 15 years ago when I'd just come through sort of officer training and was starting out in the, in the junior ranks. I was sent to Afghanistan on my own to go to Kandar Airfield for a Christmas story. So this was to film I-C-B-B-B-C. Other channels wanted to have like little clips of the guys wearing Tinsel and Santa Hats, sat in the sand and communicating back with their family to say, hi, you know, daddy will be home on New Year's Eve, whatever it was.

[00:06:29] And I went out there full of hope on the C 17, you know, with Tinsel hanging out the side of my Bergen and my little microphone and my little camera. And I got out there and none, nobody wanted to do them. All of my colleagues ran from me, especially Royal Air Force Air Crew, they don't like media officers.

[00:06:44] So when they see you coming, you're the girl that puts me on tv. They literally run. So I felt quite lonely. I was out there in my lonely little media office on my own, you know, on a big base and, and obviously with a looming deadline of, well, media wants, they want tv. Where's the TV content? I can't [00:07:00] find anybody to talk.

[00:07:02] And so I literally went out. And I made friends with the Padre. So you will always find a padre out in theater somewhere, because wherever you are in the world with the army, the air force, the navy, regardless of whatever religious beliefs you hold, whatever denomination you serve, there is a padre or a father that will be there to sort of outside of the chain of command as a sort of morale boost and someone to talk to as a sounding board.

[00:07:25] So, because he had access to everybody, because nobody stops the, the, the, the man of God going anywhere. I buddied up with him. So he, I went on his adventures and his daily rounds and every time he was chatting to people, I was just saying, can I just record this for, you know, is that okay? Do you mind wearing the sun hat?

[00:07:42] And so I had probably about a dozen, I would sort of say enforced Christmas messages that I'd kind of, sort of cajoled outta colleagues. And I went back to my office and I cut them up and I filed and sent them back to the UK through the channels of approval. Um, and they went out, they went out on Facebook on, [00:08:00] you know, a Good Morning Britain type thing.

[00:08:02] And what was lovely and what really crystallized for me the power of connection and what my job can bring to people was was that the next morning I came back after breakfast and outside my door I had a queue of, must have been 20, 25 people wanting a Christmas message. And what had happened is that the wise, the girlfriends, the mothers, the partners, the children had all seen these messages that I'd done.

[00:08:26] And said, oh my God, this is amazing. Little Johnny and Jesse loved seeing you on tv. And so they'd all said, they'd all messaged their partners in theater and said, you are to find the media officer and get yourself on telly because we love it back home. And so whilst my colleagues in theater did not want it, the families back home were loving it.

[00:08:44] And so just one girl on our own with a little camera, a little notebook, little recorder, could have such a humongous impact in that kind of community spirit. And I thought, do you know what? I'm in the right place at the right time. Even if it is a bit dodgy and people are shooting at us, but hey.

[00:08:58] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:08:59] Part of the job. Yeah. [00:09:00] Well it says a lot, doesn't it? About the, that connection existing over a huge distance and something that probably feels like incredibly difficult to reach across to the people closest to you because they're living a completely different life in a different place with different set of priorities.

[00:09:16] That must become quite difficult to remind yourself of how that feels, but still that connection exists and. I love that and I love the bit about the padre actually, because yeah, I think, you know, we quite often overlook people who are in these positions of sort of influence, but they're not necessarily the same profile as the most powerful people.

[00:09:42] But often like finding people like that, like it's the, sometimes it's the caretaker. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It's that sort of role of, of the people that actually can be your most. Your friends that can make the most difference to what you can do in a place.

[00:09:58] Lesley: And it, and it also, I think it [00:10:00] teaches you to be a better storyteller, a better communicator.

[00:10:02] And I, I always try and take a lesson for myself and then I try and repurpose it and share it with others in that, that Christmas day I was filming in the industrial kitchen that feeds many, many people. And there was something like 30 turkeys coming out. It was quite crazy to watch. And it was so incredibly hot and steamy 'cause it's an industrial kitchen.

[00:10:20] In the desert, so Right. It was, it was quite sweaty and we were allowed for one day to wear ugly Christmas jumpers over our uniform just while we had lunch. Bit of sun on the day, still a working day, and we were filming and I was eventually eating my own lunch after I'd filmed everybody else eat their lunches.

[00:10:38] And there was a rocket attack because obviously enemy forces knew that mostly Christians celebrate Christmas and what a great day to deliver some lovely little rockets and some things to them. And so we all just calmly, quietly slid our little plastic plate of Turkey off the table onto the floor, put the body armor on over the Christmas jumper, and just carried on eating the Turkey like it was normal as, and I was [00:11:00] like, this is the kind of stuff that, this is the, this is the stuff that I remember from like World War II with sort of like the really in, you know, influential photographers like Cecil Beaton showing the stories of human life.

[00:11:11] This is human life for us. This is our Christmas day. And I mean, yeah, it was 15 years ago, but it's still one of my favorite Christmas days I've ever had in my life.

[00:11:18] Sarah: Did you find a way to bring that story out, or was it just being in it that was the powerful bit for you?

[00:11:24] Lesley: I think it was both. I mean, I, I took photos, I shared a couple of little blogs, um, did a couple of radio pieces, which was my original background myself.

[00:11:33] But I think for me, I've still got those mental pictures in my head of, you know, what it was feeling like. I just, I actually remember feeling very disgruntled. The enemy forces were interrupting my, my waited long awaited Turkey. 'cause I'd obviously worked through the, the most of the lunch to get other people through.

[00:11:49] And I just thought I'm, I'm damned if I'm not gonna get my Christmas lunch. So we all just reached up. 'cause you dunno how long you're gonna be on the floor rocket. The AllClear might be sort of 30, 40 minutes, you don't know. So we all [00:12:00] just reached up, brought it down onto the floor, and then we're just having like, you know, pulling crackers and doing whatever.

[00:12:05] And it was just, it's very wrong to say so much fun in a war zone, but it was really lovely. And the thing about the connection there is that I was alone. I, I deployed on my own as a like single unit, but because everybody else out there was wearing uniform, even if the different nationalities, even if they didn't celebrate Christmas themselves, everybody was in it together.

[00:12:25] And so they were sharing things and passing around bits of cake and there weren't any Christmas presents. But actually what I did love was when I went back on Boxing Day to my office door, there was a new pair of combat boots. And a giant tub of E 45 cream outside my door with a little red bow on. It's kind of like, you know, Santa can find you anywhere if you've been a good girl.

[00:12:46] And so basically the medics and the RF regimen had gone We, we'll give her something 'cause she's given us something. So I was like, I was, I. You knew that a giant tub of E 45 cream is gonna be your best ever Christmas present, but it's, I have very dry skin and it was so, [00:13:00] it was lovely. Perfect.

[00:13:01] Sarah: I like what you were saying there as well about the, the visual Yeah.

[00:13:04] Communication of the story. And that's really interesting because you can tell a very impactful and memorable story. With words about what happened to you in that, in that situation with the Turkey and everything. And it's interesting that you referenced sort of war photography in the past and I think, you know, the visual capture of some of the tensions and contradictions and the, the, the weirdness of seeing body armor on somebody eating Christmas dinner and or, or people hiding under a table, but having fun together, dads.

[00:13:39] Something that people are gonna see it in different ways, but it tells a story, doesn't it, in its own way. Can you talk a little bit about that, about the sort of visual side of what you do as well as the sort of the words that you might craft to tell a story?

[00:13:51] Lesley: So, I'm, I'm very lucky in that we work with, they're now called visual communicators in that I technically deploy as, as a writer or as what they call a mobile [00:14:00] news team leader.

[00:14:00] So as the officer, I'm in charge of a team of visual communicators and they, they have specializations in that some will be video. Some will be stills, which is obviously photos and some will be audio. We do podcasts, we do radio, and we mostly record content. That goes back to media organizations because obviously we are effectively journalists in uniform.

[00:14:20] It's much easier to do that than have one of them come out and be much more at risk and not understand the environment. So I've worked with some absolutely amazing photographers over the years, and I get to. It sounds quite arrogant. I get to direct and storyboard, but ultimately they're the ones in charge of the shutter, and they will take the best photos they think there are.

[00:14:40] And some of these guys, they've won awards. They've, um, you know, documentaries that have won BAFTAs, et cetera. It's a real privilege to do that, but it, it's taught me to look at life differently, I think, because I've always been, you know, sort of 2, 3, 4 weeks with like a small team of two or three people, and you have to learn their discipline.

[00:14:59] [00:15:00] Not least of which to take the lens cap off and, and make sure you, you're pointing the camera in the right direction. But you, you do that and then you are teaching them how to perhaps craft a couple of paragraphs to go with a photo, but they're teaching you how you can illustrate your feature story.

[00:15:15] And so I can now through the gift of having learned lessons from them, walk into a room or walk into an event or get on the back of an aircraft or land somewhere. And I can see the story in the pictures. And sometimes you don't need a lot of words. I used to, in my early in my career, I used to write reams and reams and reams of words, and then I did a, a piece of work, um, for a few years working in radio where writing radio scripts is a different discipline entirely, and it's very short and sharp and catchy and buzzwords and jingles.

[00:15:45] And, and then I think learning that actually six photos and 50 words can do the job of almost anything else if it, if it's clever, if it's crafted well. And I think, you know, I, I was absolutely inspired by Cecil Beaton. If anybody's [00:16:00] not aware of who he was, he, he worked in Hollywood as a reporter, did photography, but he did set design and he did costume work and he worked on my Fair Lady.

[00:16:07] So it's all sort of very, very beautiful. You know, you can, you can imagine it in your head, but he did wartime photography and not everybody knows that. And he was going around and he was trying to document the children and the families that had been left behind all. You know, bombed out, Rob, what did it look like?

[00:16:23] And he, he kind of filmed it in the same way that he'd actually done the film sets. And so the cinematography and the layout is absolutely beautiful, which is the wrong word to use for a destructive scene of a bombed out street. But they are beautiful images and they leave a story with you and you, you do feel connected over time.

[00:16:39] That lit, those stories transcend time.

[00:16:41] Sarah: Yes. They stay in your mind, don't they? I was really lucky recently to hear Kate ad speaking in person, obviously for. Listeners that don't recognize the name, she is a pioneering television journalist that was, that worked in a lot of war zones. Incredible journalist, brilliant woman, particularly [00:17:00] difficult job.

[00:17:00] And, and, and back then when she was working in the eighties and nineties, it was a, a very unusual job for a tiny woman to be doing. But she was talking about this too, and how she needed often to distill down a big, complicated story. To something very simple that would reach through the television screen to viewers and use as few words as possible.

[00:17:22] And so using the visual imagery where she could, for example, have an overhead shot that showed a huge crowd of people. So you don't need to say, oh, there's masses of people gathering here. And you know, try and give a number and say they're all angry. You just show it. And then you talk about underneath what's going on.

[00:17:39] So it's almost like almost the discipline that has been coined. Good about Twitter. I hesitate to say that, but where you think, how could I say this in as fewer words as possible, to still reach across and get a message across. She was doing that in the eighties of finding a very powerful visual way to, to use as [00:18:00] few words to convey it, you know, as as memorable a message as possible.

[00:18:03] Lesley: Her autobiography was called The Kindness of Strangers, which is something I can really identify with because every exercise or. Training opportunity I've ever been on. And many of them with our NATO allies or our other partners who, English is not their first language, they might not have a lot of English or any English at all.

[00:18:20] And I was on exercise in Albania a few years ago where the, this is the local EMBAs embassy sort of took us out on like a walking tour of their, their sort of like their castle, their cultural stuff, hotspots, their heritage. And it was a beau, it was a beautiful part of the country, but it was quite poor.

[00:18:35] And a lot of these people here were, were sort of selling on market stores, working on farms. And they were seeing our, our uniform and they, the only words, the only word they knew and they could work out or they could share was nato because they understood what NATO was. So they were pointing at me and pointing at badges I was wearing and just saying nato, which technically I was just saying yes.

[00:18:56] So, and they were, it was like, you know, offering some bread or offering a [00:19:00] drink or something. I was like, that is the kindness of strangers, that there is a commonality about. The uniform that I represent, the thing that I'm wearing is the connection that they will see me and work out that I'm hopefully friendly forces.

[00:19:12] And then they obviously, they, they liked that kind of concept to be able to say, well, thank you for helping keep our country safe. Have a, have a piece of bread, have a, you know, have a whatever. And those, those kind of things, especially the, the countries that don't have big armed forces or anything like that themselves, they don't know what they're looking at.

[00:19:29] And so it's, it's, it's quite hard to connect when you don't speak the same language.

[00:19:34] Sarah: Absolutely. And I, I remember you talking about this, about taking off, I think this is, was your story taking off Bulletproof jacket? Yes.

[00:19:41] Lesley: Yeah.

[00:19:41] Sarah: In order to feel more. Human and available, I suppose, accessible, less hostile when you're trying to speak to local people.

[00:19:51] Is that

[00:19:51] Lesley: That's, that's the thing. I think so. I was lucky enough to work with a really amazing colleague who actually we ended up two pages in Vogue Magazine. The only other story I've had in Vogue [00:20:00] Magazine in my entire career, a fabulous lady called Fight F Tenant Charlie, me, who was in the Royal Air Force Police.

[00:20:05] She was one of the first women to lead the female engagement team in Afghanistan. We were trying to do some of the rebuild of the country and to go forward and sort of share some women's health lessons and, you know, the guys were sort of building wells for water and helping the kids sort of set things up for their playgrounds and things.

[00:20:21] And so we would go in as all female team. 'cause it had to be, to be allowed into that area and to get past obviously the, the, the guards that were looking after them. You had to take your helmet off, your body armor off and let your hair down to show that you were also a woman. They would let you in. And obviously then have to go kind of one step further in that you, you have to take off the shades.

[00:20:41] You have to, you know, you need to engage eye contact because again, there's very little English. We're very lucky to have translators who obviously spoke various dialects and, and sort of languages. But you are trying to connect with people who do not share the same language as you, and sometimes taking off all of that protective armor.

[00:20:58] Is there any way you can do it [00:21:00] because you have to show that you are also a woman just sat there in effectively a t-shirt and a pair of trousers.

[00:21:04] Sarah: So interesting about the eyes as well. There's something

[00:21:06] Lesley: you need to take your sunglasses off

[00:21:08] Sarah: really. Yeah. There's really profound about looking someone in the eye and being able to get that sense of whether this is somebody that you can connect with.

[00:21:15] And I think yet that that eye to eye contact and engagement between people, that that, again, is so innately human and it is, it's a way that we can make a connection across communication barriers across. Situations where people might be feeling very emotional, very defensive, very angry. Perhaps if you can look somebody in the eye.

[00:21:36] It's the first level, isn't it, of being able to connect. I think

[00:21:40] Lesley: it is, and it, and it's the same down the TV camera lens as well, in that when I've done media training for senior officers, or I've stood beside somebody who's being interviewed on tv, which is obviously my role to set that interview up. I think it's a comfort blanket.

[00:21:55] Most of the military officers are, they like to keep their hats on, but actually the hat will shade their [00:22:00] eyes, but they like it because it obviously gives them that sort of sense of presence and that sense of rank. And then when you're on a, in your Sunny Airs seal, and I do it myself, you're on a Sunny Airs seal or a windy airfield.

[00:22:09] I keep my shades on 24 7 and as your eyes just stream, but when you're on tv, you have to take them off. It's like, well. Do you want me to appear on camera looking like I'm crying or do you want me to look like I'm in top gun with my ray bands on? You choose because I can't do both. But again, it's that nine times out of 10 they will ask you to take off your sunglasses.

[00:22:28] And then you try and make it a very, very quick TV into, so you can then just, oh, squint again. But again, it's that the TV camera, the camera needs to see your eyes. The people at home need to see you Looking into the lens,

[00:22:39] Sarah: you've done quite a lot of high profile media projects and campaigns and, and all sorts of things that involve so many of these different elements that you're talking about.

[00:22:47] It'd be great to hear about one or two of those, and. If there are sort of common ingredients, common threads where they've worked and they've helped you or that you, you've learned the hard way maybe.

[00:22:56] Lesley: I think we've done a few, a few fun ones. So we've, [00:23:00] so I have, I have a sort of a dream job that I believe there is a chap in the Pentagon called the Hollywood Liaison Officer.

[00:23:05] I'd like to think if ever there was anybody in the armed forces that got to do that here in the uk. I'd be first in the queue for that job, but working with some of the films to help help reach people through the medium of storytelling in a sort of slightly more fictionalized reality way. It's not all just fact-based news.

[00:23:21] And in 2019, right before COVID, we got to work with Disney and the new Captain Marvel that Bree Larson was starring in and it was coming out on International Women's Day. So it was kind of a gift. And I was very lucky in that Disney actually rang my office. It really was a gift. I was like, just Chuck, are you sure you're from Disney?

[00:23:36] You really want me? It's not a thing that happens every day. Exactly. Are you sure you're not winding me up? And they, they wanted to work with us and I mean, the pictures were just beautiful. In the end, we ended up on the. So the red carpet premier with them, and I had women from each of the services of the Royal Navy and the British Army and the Royal Air Force, and it was women who fly.

[00:23:55] So it was either fast jet panes or helicopters. And there was one young [00:24:00] Army pilot and she was proper badass, proper hardcore, and she flew a patchy helicopters, which if you know the story of Prince Harry, it's, it's the gunship of, of the British Army. I mean, she did not mess with her. And we were Jin sort of photo shoots and things.

[00:24:12] And I had the idea in the press junket where they were saying, well, would you like to ask some of the film stars some questions? And I thought, well, I could. I could use me in as a trained interviewer, but actually how much more fun to put up this young lady instead? And so I pushed her in a room to interview Jude Law, who was obviously playing one of the bad guys in the film.

[00:24:30] And it's just genius TV when you watch it back because she's literally the body language. She takes no prisoners. She's like, what's the hardest part about being, you know, an A-list celebrity who does all these things? Oh, I'm away from home and I can't see the family. And she's like, dude, no, what? Then he says, well, what have you been up to lately?

[00:24:48] And she's like, I've just come back from Afghanistan. I was away for like six months, didn't see my family, and I was literally killing myself with laughter behind the white screen sort of thing. And I just thought how two worlds collide? But it, [00:25:00] it was so lovely in that it illustrated the real deal as in, you know, we are shaping the story because the, the Captain Marvel story, if you don't know it, she's a US Air Force pilot to obviously get struck by the lightning bolt from an experimental engine, and she gets superpowers effectively.

[00:25:15] But because they were using us, you know, military stories, they wanted to do something with us for the European premier. So it was a gift. It was a real gift as a storytelling opportunity. And then I had a lot of fun with it on tv. I mean, that's a

[00:25:27] Sarah: really nice story of uh, something that's very relevant to the topic.

[00:25:31] But there's something really interesting in there about you stepping out of it. And like you say, you'd be the professional interviewer, you know what you're doing. You'd probably be very smooth. You'd probably like, you know, craft it in a, a way that felt you, it's gonna be a one hit wonder and you know what you're doing.

[00:25:45] Especially if you are interviewing somebody that is so used to being in front of the camera. But. Stepping back and letting other people be the main players. That's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? Like have you found that to be a useful tactic [00:26:00] in, in other ways?

[00:26:01] Lesley: I, I think it kind of comes to that where you are in your career because sort of, you know, coming at this in my late forties as a senior officer now my gift, if I was to say stay on until retiring at 60, my gift in the next 10 years is to train the next generation version of me.

[00:26:18] He'll be facing very different challenges. We're not in the same kind of warfare that we store in Afghanistan. It's a very different situation in Europe now, and so they need to be trained. Same storytelling skills, not dissimilar to Cecil Beaton's work. Just a very different environment. So it's all about me stepping back and I've had to learn some fairly big ego lessons because it's so easy to say If someone offers you a moment of glory, it's so easy to just take it.

[00:26:42] But actually the right thing to do might be to bring your protege forward. Or give it to a junior officer or give it to a, a young corporal that's just looking to sort of cut their teeth. So I think that's the thing that comes with age and experience, whereas my dad used to say, old age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill, but sometimes that's not the right thing to do.[00:27:00]

[00:27:01] Sarah: There's something in there as well though, isn't there? About confidence and yeah, your own comfort and frankly, better leadership skills that's completely transferrable to other contexts where to become a better leader. You need to have the self-confidence to step back, not have to be so controlling about everything, not have to be the one that does things, but to be able to trust, not just trust people, but empower them and support them and to let them be the star.

[00:27:29] And I think you, you do see so many leaders really struggling with that transition. And quite often because the reason they've become leaders is because they are the stars of the show and they're not quite sure. How else to be? So you have to be a high achiever and you have to be someone that's getting all the accolades.

[00:27:48] So how do you kind of, you know, I think it's a really interesting one that you see in leaders of like, if you are gonna be really good at this, you have to learn to dial that down and, and bring other people up around you. And [00:28:00] it's really fascinating to hear you talking about that. And I think it, it says a lot about.

[00:28:04] It's interesting to hear your own self reflections about whether you, how you see yourself as a leader and whether you have been aware of that kind of comfort developing in your own willingness to let go a little and, and empower others around you. Have you noticed that in yourself?

[00:28:21] Lesley: It's a, it's a tricky one.

[00:28:22] I think if you'd said, you know, the sort of the 33-year-old Lesley that passed out of college, Cranwell was like, you know, I need to be here. I need to be doing that. And sort of, you know, 49-year-old. Senior Officer Lesley is very much like, actually, what can I do to shape the environment for other people and give something back now?

[00:28:38] But what I've tried to do is I think, I didn't realize just you talk about, you know, intellectual property, I didn't realize just how much kind of material I was sitting on because I have been very privileged to have some amazing adventures. And so, you know, trying to collate them together in a book or share them in talks as I'm doing with you guys.

[00:28:57] It's not about the Lesley Woods ego. [00:29:00] It's actually about showing up in the service of other people and letting go of the outcome, which is the mantra that I live by. So every time I've ever been stuck somewhere, or I've been scared or I've been, what do I do is if you focus on other people, you get, you get your head outta your own head and into the action.

[00:29:16] So you start to think about what can you do to help other people? Can you, can you do something to feel, feel a bit more psychologically safe? Can you do something that will help them feel more confident so they won't keep coming to you for questions next time. And I, I had it, I had it that, that Christmas I was looking after a photographer who'd been sent out to me to help with those Christmas stories.

[00:29:37] And as I said, they were sort of sending rocket attacks in and things like that for Christmas. And she'd never been in, she'd never been in Afghanistan before and she was quite scared. And we were in the media office late on, I think it was Christmas Eve night. We were there late and we were waiting to stay up because I had a little TV in my office and BFBS, which is our British Forces Broadcasting, would often play the strictly come dancing Christmas special, but [00:30:00] with the time difference and the, it was like three in the morning.

[00:30:03] So she and I were gonna stay up to watch it because just, we decided it was a fun thing to do and they was still rocketing. And so she was quite scared. So what I did in the office is I built a little den, so I have a little brother. And when you have little brothers, you learn how to make them feel safe in, in sort of play spaces.

[00:30:19] So I built her a little den under the desk and we had like some chairs and some tar pool in and stuff, and we just kind of sort of sat there, you know, playing card games or in this case doing a kitten puzzle that some little, little granny sent out in a, in a box for the troops at Christmas time. So you're on the floor in full body armor, just doing a kitten puzzle, playing with whatever toys you can find, just completely trying to distract her from being scared that a rocket may or may not potentially hit our building.

[00:30:44] And there is nothing you can do about that. All you can do is put the body armor on and hide. You don't know where the rocket's gonna land. You can't shape that destiny. But I had to get her out of that fear and into something else, and that was literally doing a kitten puzzle. And because I was helping look after her, I [00:31:00] felt less scared.

[00:31:00] But that hadn't been my goal. I was just trying to help both of us.

[00:31:03] Sarah: It relates so strongly to. The themes that we are picking up this year for the in-person, speak to the human event in June where you'll be a speaker, which I'm delighted about. And yeah, the theme where the event is called, well under the heading, speak to the human.

[00:31:20] The theme is Opportunity, risk and Permission to Fail. And that will be a lot in there about risk of trust. And I think that your role, your context, some of the situations you found yourself in, like the one that you're talking about. Shed such an interesting light on those things, and I think that this idea of permission to fail is a really interesting one where, in a context where failure has such immense consequences, the kinds of things that we're talking about with, you know, empowering other people where you, you kind of taking a risk by letting somebody else do something that you know you could do.

[00:31:54] Right. How do you encourage people to, to innovate or [00:32:00] to to do something different or to take a step for the first time or to change? In that kind of context, that might be mission critical or dangerous. How, how do you do that?

[00:32:11] Lesley: So as, as a kind of sort of fighting forces a collective, we have a saying which is train hard, fight easy.

[00:32:17] We train, train, train, train, and then train some more. And if it ain't raining, it ain't training. So it's usually wet, muddy, cold, and then uncomfortable. But you are getting comfortable with being in discomfort. And so you are literally training, training, training, and that includes all of the kits. So you spend quality time with your rifle, you learn how to sleep in a tent, you learn how to make yourself a shelter.

[00:32:37] You learn how to cook for yourself on the little hexa stove burners and things. So you do that in peace time while we're here in the UK or in exercise overseas until such time as if you have to do it in anger when you are deployed somewhere. It's second nature and it's so easy. So then you don't worry about the stress of that.

[00:32:54] You then got that next level of worrying about your own mental pressures and the mental and the story that's going on inside your [00:33:00] head. So owning your own story, so you can put on your mental body armor if you want to think of it like that. So that's quite a useful thing to have. And when you go through your training, there's a story where if you're having a moment of doubt or a little wobble or just an emotional hiccup, whatever you want to call it.

[00:33:17] The instructors would say to you, it's time to go and talk to the tree. So RF, college, Cromwell, the airfield has sort of lots of trees round around the back of it. And so you would literally go and have a little word with whichever tree you chose far away from your colleagues. And it's not dissimilar to the Dragons Den sort of sessions when the dragons will say to the entrepreneur, do wanna go and have a word, you know, word with yourself at the back wall type thing.

[00:33:40] And it literally is just that, being able to verbalize the what's going on in your head and get it out so you can work out. Actually, I sound quite foolish. I need to just grow up and I'll get over this. Or actually, this is raising a valid point. I need to ask for help and do something someone else needs to help me with this.

[00:33:55] So that whole kind of talk to the tree and just kind of have a little chat with [00:34:00] yourself. That's a good start of a tent.

[00:34:01] Sarah: That's brilliant. The, uh, self-awareness though, and the self-regulation that that takes even to think in the first place. I'm not quite in control of my emotions here. And to understand.

[00:34:15] To see that in yourself, not to go into denial and to be ready to do something about it. That takes, that takes quite a lot, doesn't it? Do you think? Yes. Practice?

[00:34:25] Lesley: Yeah,

[00:34:25] Sarah: yeah, yeah. How do you, how do you help other people to get to that point?

[00:34:29] Lesley: So, the first thing I do is I, I share all the stories of when it's gone horribly wrong, or I've been absolutely petrified, and they go, hang a minute.

[00:34:37] You're, you're a squadron leader. You must, you know, you've been in this almost 20 years, you've got all these medals and you'd bounce around the world. You must be like, you know, invincible. You think? No. So I think showing your human side to the guys that, and the girls that you are training is the first step.

[00:34:50] And then literally you are effectively giving them permission to fail, but creating that safe space. And so again, we do more and more and more training with, with my, my media squadron [00:35:00] colleagues. We train every month at our base and we train and we share our specialist skills. So we have a. We have all these specialists that I've mentioned about photographers or videographers or reporters or you know, radio journalists.

[00:35:12] And what we do is, although I am the training officer, I don't do all the training. I get the expert. I am not a videographer. I'm not, I can pick up a camera and switch it on, but I couldn't probably edit a full package. But I don't need to because I might be the leader. But I've got specialists, so I'm getting them to be the trainer and they're training and they love, they absolutely love training each other and skill sharing, which is really cool because as a team of part-time volunteers.

[00:35:35] You don't join the reserves to have a sort of second big income stream. You do it. Do it because you want to give something back and you need to have some kind of enjoyment and some kind of fulfillment outta it. But for me, it's absolutely fabulous having a cup of tea sitting at the back knowing that my work here is done, because they're all cracking on.

[00:35:50] Yeah.

[00:35:51] Sarah: Yeah. Fantastic. I think you, you are a really powerful storyteller. You've, you know, you really struck me. When I've listened to you [00:36:00] at conferences as I, as I said earlier, that you had such, you were very different from other speakers actually, and that I think quite often at a business conference, people come with their slides and it's all very carefully thought out, and they've got three bullet points in each side and it's nicely presented and they're probably, you know, if there's a good presentation, they've got some nice pictures there to illustrate it and it's all very good and purposeful.

[00:36:19] And a lot of them forget that actually sometimes. Getting rid of all of that, putting something massive on the screen and just diving right into a story that is about something maybe scary or different or human or where everything went wrong, that's just better to listen to. Much more memorable and gets your point across so much more strongly.

[00:36:42] And I guess with your background and your role and all of the situations you've been in, you've been exposed to some fabulous material for telling stories. Right. But, but even so, I think that ordinary in inverter commas daily life for all of us, it's full of stories. It's full of [00:37:00] experiences. Yeah. And it, a lot of it is just in how we think about it, how we might tell it, you know, some of the most powerful.

[00:37:07] Novels and films that are not about the most out outlandish situations, they are quite often about people's normal interactions and that they're still stories that we connect with as humans. So I guess I'm interested in how you think about storytelling and where you. How that comes into your mind? Is it when you are already in a situation that you think, this would be a way that I would like to share this, this is how I'd like to communicate it?

[00:37:38] Or do you go actively looking for stories or a mix of those? How does, how does storytelling happen in your mind?

[00:37:45] Lesley: So I think it's kind of a mix. I very rarely have the luxury of being, oh, this is a really good story, is this unfolding? And sometimes you're just not able to take pictures. I've been very lucky in that, for example, the story I shared with you about.

[00:37:57] Being sort of caught in a sandstorm and a and a fire in [00:38:00] Afghanistan. There was a photographer present who was taking pictures if only to sort of, you know, document what was happening because there was so much damage going on to tents and things. But I've been in scenarios where I was very, very lucky. I was able to sit for a few days alongside the director of Mission Impossible Broke Nation, because they were borrowing a Royal Air Force base and they'd obviously hired in a plane.

[00:38:22] Um, to do the opening sequence of that film where Tom Cruise hangs off the side of a plane. If you've not seen the film, check out the first seven minutes. It's fabulous. So that was, spent a sort of week filming with us and we had to try and keep it all top secrets. There were no phones, no photography, no imagery.

[00:38:37] But I was sat beside the director and he was very, very generous and he was showing me his screen, telling me how he was directing Tom, what was gonna happen, et cetera. He had his own World War II story of his family sort of serving in, in the British military. And I always remember what it felt like and sort of seeing Simon peg lying in the grass dressed as Benji with all sort of stuff hanging off him and Tom himself came over and chatted to us, and he was [00:39:00] so lovely and so genuine for all these kind of, sort of stories that you read about celebrities that, you know, oh, they must be this and they must be that.

[00:39:06] But he just genuinely was very nice and warm to us, which was lovely to see. And that was a fabulous week. But I have no pictures of it because we weren't allowed to take them. So, so it's a story that I, I, I keep. And I don't share it that often. Once the film would come out and we were allowed to talk about it more openly, I did sort of curate it into some leadership lessons that I'd picked up on reflection.

[00:39:27] Very often I just get these little flashes in my mind and I'm like, I'm gonna write that down, I'm gonna write that down. And then I think all good leaders have like a little notebook somewhere. Certainly all the good wartime leaders like Guy Gibson kept one. You jot down your thoughts and then eventually they can be honed into leadership lessons that you can share with other people.

[00:39:43] Sarah: Mm-hmm. It's interesting that you are bringing that. Right back to a kind of personal reflection on it and that you've probably spent a bit of time digesting and thinking about it and reflecting on it, and then, and then you are sharing something quite personal. Do you think that's an important part of how you tell [00:40:00] stories?

[00:40:00] It's sort of through your own eyes, or is there a mix? I mean, sometimes do you, do you need to do it in a less personal way?

[00:40:07] Lesley: I, I think it's, I think it's a mix and I think where I've seen. Other people, very proficient, credible storytellers trying to, trying to share the stories of other people or brands or big businesses, but they have failed to sort of put in the foundation, which is, it all starts with owning your own story until you are clear on your story, why you are here, what's your purpose, what makes you happy, how you know, what's your life approach on a thing?

[00:40:31] What values do you stand for? It's very hard to then build on top of that if you haven't got a strong foundation. So. I, it took me a while. My mother passed away six months ago and my father passed away a few years ago. They were both in the Royal Air Force and I think I went through a bit of crisis of confidence of like, well, should I just quit now?

[00:40:48] 'cause I joined 'cause they wanted me to. Why am I still here? Have a think about it, reflect a bit. But actually I'm really proud to carry on their legacy because I am literally the, quite depressing at [00:41:00] 49, the matriarch of the family. And I've got a little brother who's looking up to me for leadership, so I'm okay.

[00:41:05] But that for me was kinda like, do you know what? I'm gonna go back. And I went back over all of the old photo albums and I pulled out all of the, the sort of the posters of mom appearing as a, you know, sort of recruitment child for the, the Young Royal Air Force, the 1960s, that kind of thing. And I thought, I'm gonna own it, because actually that's my legacy.

[00:41:22] That's who I am. And your vibe attracts your tribe, as they say, and people were coming and asking to hear about it and wanting to share it. 'cause they could say, people need to see themselves in your story. Yes. So it's not even about ego. It's about, can you see yourself in my story? Can I take you on that journey to Afghanistan with me?

[00:41:39] And can you feel how uncomfortable I was in that hot, sweaty kitchen? Can you learn the lesson of camaraderie from eating Turkey under the table? And can you learn the leadership lesson of trying to take care of that photographer when she was scared? Yes. And if you can, then I've done my job.

[00:41:53] Sarah: So it's really bringing something human and evocative to the surface in the story, isn't it?

[00:41:58] So. I suppose I was talking about [00:42:00] personal before, that's a different thing. It could be personal, but either way it needs to be that somebody can see it and relate to it and put themselves in the situation and feel some emotion about it. Do you kind of consciously think about that when you are telling a story or, or is it something that you are finding just comes through more naturally as you've done it?

[00:42:19] Lesley: It does get easier the way you practice it, but I did a talk about 18 months ago for a very large organization that's been set up to look after sort of. The future of young women leaders and they'd asked me to do a one hour masterclass that would appeal to women that are a good sort of 25 years younger than me.

[00:42:37] And it was an all female audience, and I'd not done a one hour kind of to that many people before. So I, I actually fell into the trap of over preparing and then, and then a couple of days before, I was like, I don't like this. It doesn't feel, I can't stand on out. It takes a lot of energy to hold a stage for an hour.

[00:42:52] I can't do this. It's not gonna be great. So what else can I do? So I had my carefully prepared notes and I zipped them in my bag [00:43:00] and I put my bag under the podium. So if I had a panic moment, I could get a glass of water and do a quick check. And I went off script and I, I had my pictures up on the screen with very few words, and I just told the stories and I knew what lessons I was trying to drop because I sort of embedded them into the slides.

[00:43:17] And then I just answered questions and it was just lovely. And they thought it was fabulous that somebody was just literally. You know, sort of riffing on stage and, and sort of sharing things. We were to have this script of like, and then I did this thing and then I went there and then that happened and it's like, no, I'm bored now.

[00:43:31] You can't do that for an hour. You will absolutely lose people.

[00:43:34] Sarah: I love that. I think that there's something much more raw and spontaneous if you're good at it. I mean, I can imagine that there would be some people that either would struggle with it or not, not not be able to hold it. It's scary effectively.

[00:43:45] Yeah, I can imagine. If you are someone that's good at it and that, I mean, almost an enforced situation, I can imagine where your technology breaks or whatever it is, where, yeah, you have to speak directly, could be just a much more effective way of [00:44:00] communicating with the room.

[00:44:00] Lesley: Yeah. It's the thing, I think it's, this is why it's, it helps to get really clear on your story is like, who am I?

[00:44:06] Where have I come from? What have I got to share with you? Why should you listen to me? How can I help you? So it is literally showing up in the service of other people. It's like. What can I give you in an hour or 30 minutes, or whatever it is I've got on stage? What can I give you that's useful? Just a couple of top tips to take away with you from someone who's lived a very different life that you might never see yourself, but it's absolutely transferable skills.

[00:44:27] Yeah,

[00:44:27] Sarah: yeah, totally love it. Just one last question about the stories part of it. Do you think there are key ingredients that need to be included in a story or are you much more free flowing with how you tell stories?

[00:44:40] Lesley: So, I mean, there are. I think everybody, every storyteller's got their own little sort of secret sauce, special formula.

[00:44:46] There are so many formulaic ways you can do it. You know, there is like the hero's journey and then there's like this sort of the jeopardy and that, you know, they, they tell this big set pieces. Movies are very good at this. You know, the meek, cute fall in love, something bad happens, girl leaves boy, [00:45:00] boy gets girl back, et cetera.

[00:45:01] But in my world, I've distilled it down to three things for me, and I've called it my bulletproof storytelling because. It literally is, if you can make this story bulletproof, it will hold up in a crisis and you'll be able to keep telling it and it will work, and you'll reach your audience. Um, and obviously the, the aim of telling any story is to emotionally engage your audience.

[00:45:19] Otherwise, why are you talking and taking up air? So for me, it's the three Cs. It's to clarify your story. As I've said, you've got to own your own story first, can you command attention? Can you hold your own and get people to listen to you even if the world is crumbling around you? And then can you commit to your mission?

[00:45:36] So this is where we have sort of like commander's mission intent effectively. So when a commander in the military has a brief, he will give a very kind of big picture aim, and then he will let those below him or Herb let those below her, translate that. So what does success look like? You're painting a broad picture.

[00:45:55] My commander's intent is that we will have a positive [00:46:00] documentary about the armed forces on a channel that covers off, you know, life for us overseas. Okay, great. Well, I could now go and find some stories that will help bring that to life, but he is not, he or she's not being prescriptive. So you've got a big picture mission, but you're not micromanaging and you're not sort of spoonfeeding or long screwdriver or whatever other sort of acronym you want to put in there.

[00:46:20] Sarah: Hmm. That's really interesting. Do you, do you think that you, you need to have, I mean, it sounds like there's quite a lot of. Thinking that has to happen underneath the story. Yeah. To have those parts in place, to be clear about those things in the first place, and maybe to make sure that other people are in agreement about what those elements should be and that you are presenting something in the way that is, I mean, I'm, I'm sure in your case that that is particularly true.

[00:46:44] You have to get clearance and, and there's quite lot of that Yes. And things, but, but I suppose it exposes how much thinking there is underneath. A story, right? Yeah,

[00:46:55] Lesley: it does. It does. And I think it's just getting clear because [00:47:00] if you are not clear on what your overall purpose is, why are you telling the story?

[00:47:04] What are the com component parts of the story? Whose voices are you using? Then as soon as it starts to meet a bit of pressure, it's gonna crumble and it's not gonna survive. Contact. As we say in the military, it won't survive contact with the enemy. No plan survives contact, and that includes a storytelling plan.

[00:47:19] So.

[00:47:22] Sarah: So speaking to you as a human, Lesley, as our last question, what's exciting you at the moment and what are you looking forward to or, or motivated by either in or out of work?

[00:47:33] Lesley: So I think for me, it's fascinating to watch the next generations coming into joining up to the military and seeing what they want out of their service and how they're, they're doing their storytelling.

[00:47:44] So for example, we have a thing called private life activity where. Even when you are sort of in uniform, you can still do things out of it and you can get permission to appear on TV shows and reality shows and things like that. We had a British Army officer win the last series of gladiators. Uh, [00:48:00] we had a young Army corporal win, second series of traitors.

[00:48:03] Oh, cool. And this last third series of traitors was won by young female army veteran. Oh, that's so cool. So, and I mean, we've, we've starred in Britain's Got Talent appeared on very many other sort of TV shows as well. And so. These individuals that are coming through, they, you know, they, they've grown up with it being their right to share their story in a different way.

[00:48:21] The policy and the processes that we have right now aren't set up for that. And so that if somebody wants to become a paid influencer and still serve in the military, I need to look at what that policy and process is because it needs to support it, but it's still at the same time, protect the reputation of the armed forces.

[00:48:38] So you have the very, very clear paid for recruitment advert campaigns that you see on tv. But if you're going to see somebody who's currently wearing the uniform and is trying to be a helicopter pilot, and she's a young woman in the Royal Navy and she's, she's quite cool. She's actively sharing her stories on Instagram.

[00:48:54] So I'd like to work with her rather than just tell her she's not allowed to do it.

[00:48:57] Sarah: Yes.

[00:48:58] Lesley: So that's kind of the future and that, that's [00:49:00] so interesting to me because it's storytelling. The next generation after I've gone, that's what it'll be like. Quite cool.

[00:49:06] Sarah: That is really cool because it's, there's the challenge around responding to how things are changing over time and yeah, people are telling their own stories in their own ways in a very immediate and different way, so they

[00:49:17] Lesley: really are.

[00:49:18] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Lesley, it's been absolutely fantastic talking with you. I mean, I, I, I really enjoy hearing from you, hearing your stories. You've got such sort of fascinating experiences to share and you're doing so much that's really interesting with them in how you are sharing the stories and communicating effectively and the.

[00:49:38] Insights and reflections that you're surfacing about human connection. So it's just brilliant to hear it. I really appreciate your time, so thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. Thank you

[00:49:48] Lesley: for having me, and I look forward to seeing you again in June.

[00:49:50] Sarah: Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. It'll be great to have you as, as a speaker at the event.

[00:49:54] So thank you. I hope everyone's enjoyed listening to this podcast. Please like and [00:50:00] subscribe. And bye for now.