Richard Etienne on noticing the real person

[00:00:00] Sarah: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organizations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me in hearing from our brilliant guests.

[00:00:24] In this episode, I have the absolute pleasure of talking with Richard Etan, a filmmaker and founder of The Introvert Space. Richard is a beautiful combination of being thoughtful and thought provoking, someone who has followed their curiosity about human nature into an inspiring career led by a genuine passion for telling the stories of other people in a way that makes his own story so fascinating.

[00:00:48] He has worked as the official videographer at 10 Downing Street for the UK Prime Minister, and made films featuring numerous international heads of state. Despite working in these circles, he brings a [00:01:00] calm humility and an evident eye for noticing the details that reveal the human side of anyone. In this conversation, we explore what introversion means, why our culture and workplace commonly celebrate and reward extroversion, and what might be lost when it's only the loudest voices in the room that get heard.

[00:01:18] Richard is a fantastic guest and I'm confident that you'll love hearing from him. Please like, subscribe and share the show, and as always, please do send me your feedback and any ideas for future guests. Hi, Richard, welcome to Speak to the Human. You work in really interesting spaces that I'm, I'm very much looking forward to us talking about, and I think broadly there's, there's almost two different podcasts we could have here as a result of that.

[00:01:47] The first sort of sphere that you work in is that you are an experienced videographer and you've filmed and established relationships with international leaders, made other films, and it'll be great to talk with you [00:02:00] about that work and the way that you connect and communicate with the, the people that you are filming and with your audience as well.

[00:02:08] And secondly, you've set up your own business called The Introvert Space, which is broadly about workplace inclusivity from a very interesting angle that I think is so often overlooked and to the detriment of organizations. So really great to to hear more about that. So welcome, how you doing today?

[00:02:24] Richard: I'm very well, thank you, Sarah.

[00:02:25] Now, thank you. Thank, thank you for inviting me to your wonderful podcast. Yeah, really looking forward to it.

[00:02:31] Sarah: Oh, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. And I've really enjoyed our conversation so far. So, um, it's, it's good to be able to share them. So

[00:02:39] indeed,

[00:02:40] Sarah: let's start with your work as a filmmaker. You've interviewed some prominent people and you've made other films as well.

[00:02:47] So can you give us an overview of, uh, the type of films that you've made and the work that you've done?

[00:02:54] Richard: Yeah, certainly. So I would describe my filmmaking as Fly on the Wall and [00:03:00] giving an insight into an individual's life. And for, for me, I have worked with usually people who are heads of state, so, or, or very senior in, in government positions.

[00:03:16] So I was very fortunate to be the, uh, lead content creator for the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in 2018 or Chaga. As it's, um, also known as, and that was the largest event the UK had ever hosted after the Olympics in 2012. And I got to speak with and follow high commissioners, prime ministers, presidents, you know, from all across the commonwealth who, you know, to, to save on plane tickets where in London at the time.

[00:03:49] So it was, it was great. And at the very top, you know, I was fortunate enough to, to meet the late queen three times and, you know, and, and other members of the, the [00:04:00] royal family. So yeah, that, that, that was, that was just a wonderful, wonderful experience. And then from there was able to then get, uh, a role at, at, at 10 down the street, but, which I can, we will go into a little bit later.

[00:04:16] But in terms of the, the broad concept of why I do it and why I enjoy it is because I, I truly believe everyone has a. A story to tell. And when I was a lot younger and, you know, in school and such, I just didn't think that I had an interesting life. I thought that everyone else, everyone else was just more interesting than me.

[00:04:41] So I would ask lots of questions and this is everyone from, you know, the kids in school to, you know, grandparents. 'cause I'm like, wow, you, you're so old. You must know so much. You must see, you must have seen so much. So that is essentially where the, the hunger, the desire to, to, [00:05:00] to, to do filmmaking, videography, et cetera comes from for sure.

[00:05:03] Sarah: Amazing. Oh, it's so fascinating. The people that you've connected with there. Tell us a bit about how you got to that position. How do, how did you make those connections and, and become that person?

[00:05:15] Richard: So for me it all began when, it's actually quite a sad story actually. So, my, my, just as I was about to get ready for university, my, my father passed away.

[00:05:26] And so after that I was a bit lost and um, I didn't return to university. I didn't, I just didn't know what to do. However, one thing that my father did, it always inspired me to just do what I loved and like life will sort itself out. So for example, I'll just tell you a very quick story. This was when I was like early teens and I was in the living room with my father.

[00:05:56] He was in the corner at his bureau. He had his back to me. He was always [00:06:00] working in that corner. Television was on and I was flicking through the channels, and this is back when television used to make a noise every time you turn the channel. Obviously showing my age here, but he has still with his back to me, he says, can you just stay on a channel?

[00:06:15] Just pick a channel? And I said, but there's nothing interesting to watch. Then his pen is very heavy, pen drops. On the, uh, the desk. And he spins his swivel chair around, looks at me and just says, well, why don't you just make something you ought to watch? And then swivel background and continued his work.

[00:06:39] And at the time I didn't, I didn't really think of anything, think of it that much, but later, after he passed away, I did. I, I was like, oh gosh, let me just do something I enjoy. And I picked up a camera essentially and just started filming in the local neighborhood. I was unemployed at the time, and I [00:07:00] went to the job center.

[00:07:01] I remember looking at the posters on the wall, and I was advertising grants for new businesses. So I asked the woman, I said, oh, can I, can I speak to the manager here? Or whatever? And basically, I, I say, look, can I, every time you get a business, every time you grant a business, give a give, give a business some money.

[00:07:21] Can I create a promotional video for them? And the manager was like, yeah, sure. Okay. That's the short version of the conversation. And so yeah, I created lots of videos for local businesses. This is, again, back in the day when YouTube was pretty much new and then a job came up for the civil, uh, civil service.

[00:07:44] It was in a cabinet's office. And that's, yeah, I applied for that role and that's essentially how I got into that chaga, uh, role that I mentioned earlier. And then just as I was just, so, chaga obviously came to a close and I was like, oh my [00:08:00] gosh, what should I do? And I applied for a role to become sa Javid videographer, who was the home secretary at the time.

[00:08:08] And I think it was the day before I was going to give my yes. Response to the job offer that my manager at the time pulled me into a room and said, um, I just had, just had a call from 10 down the street. I was like, Ooh, lucky you. This is good. Tell me more. And he is like, no, no. They, they, they're looking for a videographer.

[00:08:31] The videographer of, you know, 10 plus years is, is stepping down. And I was like, oh my God. I was like, well, I, I'd already like, actually no, I think I'd already said yes to the whole office. And he was like, no, no, no, no, go, just go. They want to have a conversation with you. Just go to the house, hear what they have to say, and to make a decision.

[00:08:51] I think he looked at me as, as, as if to say, dude, why are you even thinking about this? Like, this is down the street. But, but anyway, so got to the house. [00:09:00] Uh, it was quite embarrassing actually. I got to the front door and it was all the press across the road and on the news. I always thought the door would open automatically.

[00:09:08] And I was like, yeah, this is definitely gonna going to happen. So I walked confidently to the door and it didn't open. I was like, what? And there's, they have the, you know, the gold letter box and I thought, lemme just push the letter box. I could do it most, most houses. But that's, that's a fake letter box.

[00:09:25] It doesn't open, it doesn't have a door knock. I was like, okay, this is, this is ridiculous. What's going on? But anyway, police opens the door, apologizes says he was busy, sat down with, uh, I was greeted by head of comms at the time, and then also my would-be manager. We, you know, we walked around the house.

[00:09:44] They showed me all, it was, it was not like a first date. They were introducing me to, to elements of the home and like, artwork from Tracy Emin, bits of moon rock. There was a bit of the, um, remember the Chilian miners that were saved? Yeah. They, they [00:10:00] also brought a piece of the rock, whatever. There was lots of rocks around the house.

[00:10:05] Um, and then, yeah, we, we got to the rose garden and, uh, yeah, sat at a table. So like a round table. It was the three of us. And conversation. Continued, but then it came to this kind of slight pause as the comms director at the time took a piece of paper outta his pocket, scribbled something on it, and then slid it across the table to me.

[00:10:30] I thought, Ooh, this could be my salary. I, um, lifted it and it said, make her more personable. And I thought, huh. And he said, can you do that? Speaking of course, of the Prime Minister at the time? And I, I said, yeah, I can do that. And uh, yeah. And that literally was like the beginning of the, the, the, the job I had as Teresa MA's videographer, official videographer.

[00:10:59] And [00:11:00] so, sorry that that was a very long, long story. But that, that essentially is, is is the nucleus the beginning of how. I got into filmmaking and, and why again? It's, it's just wonderful. 'cause that in itself is a story.

[00:11:14] Sarah: Absolutely. And I, I feel like there must be something magical that you're bringing in the work that you're doing that probably is about storytelling, probably is about the fact that you've just like held me cap captivated by wanting to find out this, this story arc of how you've gone from being unemployed, going to the job center, getting the grant, getting your video equipment and just kind of making videos locally to this massive leap to a job that presumably thousands of people would give their right arm for in what it feels like.

[00:11:51] I mean, I dunno what, what was the time span there, but it feels like quite a, a short time span. Maybe it was the way you told the story, but there [00:12:00] must be something that's in, that you are bringing to filmmaking that people. Who are in those senior positions are seeing, do you, are you aware of that and do you know what it is?

[00:12:11] Richard: Thank you, Sarah, first of all, for that. I, I really appreciate that compliment. I,

[00:12:18] I wonder whether it's to do with the fact that I'm incredibly curious about people's stories. And I would talk to anyone whether they're at a bus stop, I would, or if I was at a restaurant and I enjoyed what I ate, I'd asked to speak to the chef, head chef, I think. And also because, you know, being born and raised in London, you are surrounded by such a cosmopolitan, you know, like massive culture of so many countries and, uh, you know, yeah.

[00:12:54] Religions, races. It's just, it's just wonderful. It's, it's, it's, it's just beautiful. [00:13:00] And so this kind of kaleidoscope of. Culture that I was raised in helped me to draw out the stories of those individuals that perhaps not everyone would've noticed. And I would, I would say that's possibly why I, I'd love to hear what other people, or, you know, my interviewees or subjects, et cetera would say, but, uh, yeah, I think that's what it is.

[00:13:29] I think it's just, yeah, being surrounded by a wonderful mix of cultures for sure.

[00:13:33] Sarah: It feels like there's something really authentic, genuine at the heart of that, that's about, like you say, curiosity, but the, you are interested in the person in front of you and that you want to be able to find out more about them and that you, you're coming to it with that kind of.

[00:13:53] Yeah, that authenticity that is quite different from, I, I guess, you know, that there may be a temptation with filmmaking to be thinking [00:14:00] quite quickly about how do I make this look polished? How is this gonna be, you know, impactful? How am I gonna have energy? And in the film, I mean, I'm, I'm sure that you do think about those things too, but that you're starting with this, the person, the story, the human that's in front of you and how you want to, to help them to tell their story, to communicate that you're genuinely interested in what that might be, and that it's maybe not as obvious as the first way that people present themselves, which comes across in the story that with the piece of paper about there may, doesn't it?

[00:14:37] Yeah.

[00:14:38] Richard: And, and, and also there are stories that don't get tell told possibly because there isn't the. The link to what is current at the time. So very quick one with Theresa May. One thing I admire about her [00:15:00] is her genuine love and support for her husband, Philip May, and it was shown in the, the foreign trips we would take, so no matter where in the world we went, Teresa May would ask that we were back, or we didn't spend any longer than, I think it was three nights anywhere, because she wanted to be back with our husband.

[00:15:26] And I was raised, you know, in a loving household with both of my parents and I would see the love that they had for each other. And being with my equipment, being at the back of the house, I was always, everyone would get dropped to their relative homes or stations and I would always have to go back to the house to drop my stuff off, to then go home.

[00:15:46] So I would be the last person to be with her again. You know, obviously with security and as the door would open, you know, and it's, it's late night usually he has stood there waiting for her [00:16:00] at the bottom of the stairs, and it's just like, that's cute. I like that. And those are the stories that you don't hear.

[00:16:08] But you know, I, I, I, I think would be very well received. And, you know, I do, I do notice these things and, um, yeah. Wonderful.

[00:16:20] Sarah: Mm-hmm. And with that, with that question that they asked you with the piece of paper, h how do you do things like that? How do you work with someone who's in front of the camera who maybe perhaps struggles a bit to get themselves across, to present the human side?

[00:16:43] Them. How do, how do you pull that out, both in how you think about what the, what the whole film might look like, but also how you help them to relax and what, how you find out what they might want to communicate about themselves. How do you think about that? How do you go about actually doing it?

[00:16:59] Richard: Well, [00:17:00] higher up the chain you go, the easier it becomes to know what message they want to convey, because they have a whole, usually a whole team of people who have briefing meetings, et cetera, to, to, to find out these things.

[00:17:14] However, the easiest way, or the first thing I would like I tend to do is find out what they're interested in and whether that's, you know, for example, with Teresa made, it was her fashion, right? This woman wore the shoes. I remember she was always Exactly.

[00:17:37] Sarah: Always talk about her shoes. Yeah. Which I kind of find slightly sexist, if I'm honest, but it it was a thing, wasn't it?

[00:17:44] Richard: It was a thing. And, and yeah, she, she, she definitely enjoyed talking about those things. And I, I remember actually, yeah, she was on the front cover of GQ or the Vanity Fair or whatever she had. She, she had some really great interviews and profiles in that respect. But to make people more personable, [00:18:00] generally you have to put them around people.

[00:18:02] So it was about creating more content where she, she was with members of the public, both within, down in the streets and in their communities, and just to show how she interacted with them and, and how they responded to, to her, uh, openness and yeah, just general empathy as well. And then also making sure that.

[00:18:33] The content or the individuals that she was with were reflective of the entire country, the electorate, and so, you know, wonderful videos of her during, you know, Chinese New Year celebrations or, um, di Valley or St. Patrick's Day, rush Day, Christmas, et cetera. So just, I remember we had like a mini, [00:19:00] it was like a mini carnival in, you know, on down the street for, um, I, I don't know if that was Wind Rush day, but it's definitely one of the, you know, the, the occasions in the summer and it's, it's those, it's that type of footage that is, is the most useful in helping to make anyone, uh, appear personable or as, you know, as personable as they are.

[00:19:25] It's not, it's not, you know, it's not artificial, it's not manufactured, it's. Showing what isn't often shown as a way to display the full breadth of one's character and resolve, ambition, resilience, purpose, all of those, all of those leadership qualities that one would hope and expect in someone as prominent or seen as a prime minister.

[00:19:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:54] Sarah: I'm very interested in how much you plan what you're gonna film, and [00:20:00] particularly in that kind of scenario where, as you say, you've got a whole PR and comms team behind the message that they're trying to get out the, the way that they want to present somebody the, there's probably that she's been told to say, and she probably spends, I'm sure as all sort of top leaders, do hours kind of rehearsing those key moments either in front of a camera or that when they're gonna be on news night or when they're gonna be in front of the US president or whoever that.

[00:20:28] They've spent a long time preparing, rehearsing, talking about the words, talking about the message, crafting things. How do you hold that need in balance with what you're describing feels a really spontaneous interaction where you want to capture that human moment. You want to capture her hopefully laughing or hopefully interacting with somebody in a way that feels like this is, this is the real person here.

[00:20:56] Do you, and do you think about that a lot in advance or do [00:21:00] you go and film a ton of stuff and then pull it together afterwards?

[00:21:04] Richard: Yeah, so with the scripted element of video, there's li very little one, one can do about that. So I let that happen, especially if it's a message to camera. However, where the spontaneity comes in is through use of cutaway images.

[00:21:26] So. I would have a bank of footage from many trips. And so if I could find something that relates very well closely to what was scripted, then I would include that in the film. However, there are some events where there won't be a script. So for example, going to the UN general Assembly, I wouldn't be allowed in a lot of [00:22:00] the bilaterals because of the security level of the discussion.

[00:22:04] And so it would need to be essentially a montage type video where underneath in the background, you know, the PM's, public speech, when she was on stage, for example, there's snippets of that that would possibly play, but you know, the images will be, yeah, a montage of a. The travel to get there, because I always like to show also the work that goes on behind the scenes.

[00:22:31] This, this, this person is not on her own. There's a whole sway of professionals that are with her to, to support her. And so whether it's, uh, security, the, you know, the, the police on the bikes, you know, there'd be footage of them getting ready to, to head off. And, you know, there's some members of staff who wouldn't show, again, security reasons and the rest of it.

[00:22:55] But it's just to [00:23:00] show that whole narrative thread of this is the work that goes into preparing for this event. This is what the event is about. It's purpose, it's people, it's process. And here is the outcome of that as a result. Here is what the PM intends for this. Trip to have either resolved, created, you know, started or, um, or questioned.

[00:23:29] Sarah: I, I'm thinking about how you approach storytelling as part of this. It sounds like storytelling happens at different points in different ways. So, I dunno, are you thinking about storytelling as you are filming? I think from what you're saying, there's a lot of storytelling that happens afterwards as well that's kind of picking up using the footage that you've, that you've gained and you've, you've got a ton of that.

[00:23:55] How do you choose which bits that you, you want to use? Is there a [00:24:00] way that storytelling happens or is it just a kind of innate process that that happens in, in, in the different parts of, of the filming, pre, during, after all of that.

[00:24:09] Richard: Yeah. I, I get, I think there is, there are both elements to, to consider. So for example, I.

[00:24:17] And, and this is any government official, they will have their press team and I would ask to be invited to their briefings at the start of the week to look at their calendar and see what they have coming up and get a sense of what messages they want to convey, et cetera. 'cause now that is in my head and I'm like, okay, fine.

[00:24:40] They want us to appeal to this particular part of the electorate or to focus on this area of policy. Like, okay, now I know what type of images, imagery I need to, to capture. So that's, that's that planning process there. However, in terms of [00:25:00] storytelling, I think there is an element of that that's just always in my head.

[00:25:04] If anyone googles the Pixar story format or something like that, there is a format that every Disney Pixar movie follows. I think it was, there are seven steps. I, I don't know them off, off my heart, but if you Google that or search for that, you, I'm sure you'll find it. But it's, it's essentially this narrative arc that has a very clear start.

[00:25:32] There's an element of conflict, then there's a, there's, there's a resolution, but then just as you think it's finished, there's another kind of question.

[00:25:42] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:43] Richard: And you can either leave it with a happy ending or leave people wanting more. And while the word conflict can bring thoughts, negative thoughts to a lot of individuals when they hear that word, [00:26:00] obviously within government, the, that that has to still be delivered in a way that is favorable of whoever the, the subject matter is.

[00:26:11] Whatever the subject matter is, but it's, it's important that it's included so that people know that this is the challenge that we face and this is why these decisions are being made. Mm-hmm. So having that structure of storytelling, which I believe can work in almost anything, hence why Pixar Disney, you know, they, they're doing really well, is, yeah, it's this, this is what I carry with me and I'm, I'm, I'm very confident that when I, you know, share these in my classes, 'cause I, I, I host master classes and, you know, for, for communicators, for introverts as we'll discuss a bit later, but this is where it's very [00:27:00] clear that having a structure in one's mind definitely helps to then decide what is captured.

[00:27:10] And I'm definitely a fan of capturing what is behind the scenes as well as what is in front of us. Because every leader, every leader has a team. Mm-hmm. Every person who is successful did not get there on their own. And so I believe it's very important to share or showcase, celebrate the efforts of those who support that individual.

[00:27:39] Yeah. Or individuals.

[00:27:40] Sarah: Yeah. I really like that. And I, I really like what you were saying about conflict there, because I think in a way, particularly for this type of filmmaking where you're trying to present somebody in a very, very positive light, and I imagine this is the same for the business videos that you, you were [00:28:00] commissioned to make early in your career, where ultimately the objective is to present something very positively that comes across.

[00:28:08] Well, nevertheless, that conflict and the sort of challenge or quest part of the storytelling arc really matters because if you don't have a struggle at some point, it's a kind of vacuous story. It's like, oh yeah, we achieved something. We just, we got to a point and it was all good. That's not a good story.

[00:28:33] What, what you need to show is that there was something tricky. There's something difficult. There's something that we needed to come to. Maybe there were obstacles in our way. Maybe there were things that didn't go right. Maybe there were reasons why we didn't get to where exactly we wanted to be, but that, that is a hugely important part of a story arc.

[00:28:57] You need to have that kind of conflict and [00:29:00] explain it and show a. How it has shaped the, the rest of the tale. And, and that makes it human. It makes it real. And I think you feel that even if you're not consciously thinking about it as a viewer, you feel it because something that comes across as being too easy, too polished, too positive, doesn't feel real enough.

[00:29:20] You wanna see that kind of, that, whether it's a battle, whether it's the, the need to bring courage or the, the need to grapple with things that don't fit well together or, or the need to deal with stuff that's just messy, that's life. And that's what we need to think about in almost all of the spheres that we exist in.

[00:29:42] So I love that you talked about that. Yeah. One of the things that I'm very interested in here as well is your experience of being in front of a whole range of different leaders You've been in front of, some fascinating people. Um, you've talked quite a lot about Theresa May, which is, which is such a, such [00:30:00] a good example, and yeah, I love what you've said there about helping to get her personality across, but you've established quite a strong relationship there with one person where you've been able to work with them over a period of time and get those insights into their lives and what they're really like and how you might help them to pull that out.

[00:30:19] What about times where you've got much less opportunity to really get to know somebody? How, how do you think about helping them to come, come across as authentic or human or to tell their story when you are kind of coming at it as a, you haven't got the depth of, of time with them?

[00:30:38] Richard: There's a technique that I use used to use quite a lot, which I now see on television quite a bit, especially in sports interviews.

[00:30:46] I'm not saying they took it from me, by the way, however, but it's, it's, it's, it's when. Before the interview even begins. There's, there's, they show the bits beforehand when that person's getting ready to [00:31:00] begin. And they may have a joke with the, the boom, the mic person or like one of the production staff or something.

[00:31:07] Especially when it's a topic that's a bit serious. It's to show, so for example, the mark, oh God, what was Carney? The former bank. Canadian Prime Minister. New Canadian.

[00:31:17] Sarah: Canadian Prime Minister. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:31:18] Richard: New Canadian Prime Minister managed to interview him very briefly. And it was, I, I remember I was late, I was on the train, I was sweating.

[00:31:29] I was calling my manager at the time saying, I don't think I'm gonna make it. And, but everything was fine in the end. And you know, he, he has a very measured, we all know this, seen him, right. It's kind of very measured approach. Very, uh, uh, soft tone, even when he is speaking seriously. And, you know, when he was talking about Trump recently, even then, he wasn't really shouting, you know, he did it in his car anyway, however, that there were, there were elements before the interview even [00:32:00] began where he made a joke about, you know, me, me turning up late and something about the economy and whatever, you know, it, it, it, it was fun.

[00:32:08] It was funny and it didn't allow us to, to, to, to show that. But it's, it's something like that. Or, you know, I see it, I see it so much now, but when I don't have much time, it's capturing the elements around the interview, whether it's the be at the beginning or at the end when, you know, they're taking off their mic and saying, gosh, that was, that was a tough one.

[00:32:32] I don't believe you asked me about blah, blah, blah. And, and, and it is because you, you really get to speak to the human in that respect. Mm-hmm. Because. Then they, they're, they're opening up about feelings that are deeper than what they are either trained or practiced to do, being in their position. And let's face it, everyone loves a little bit of behind the scenes and you know, that [00:33:00] they used to be my favorite part of certain movies, you know, when they're rolling credits, when they have the, the outtakes.

[00:33:04] Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Do you know, like that I, I wait for that.

[00:33:09] Sarah: I love, I love that they artificially create those with some of the Pixar cartoons, like the Monster Zinc that they like have the outtakes. Exactly. Brilliant.

[00:33:18] Richard: So yeah, so when I don't have much time, I try to get the story around the story, if that makes sense in, in some way.

[00:33:26] And, and to just display that extra human element of that individual. Yeah.

[00:33:31] Sarah: Brilliant. And have there been times when that's led to something. Surprising or things have gone in a completely different way than you had expected?

[00:33:41] Richard: Ooh, I, I don't know if, if I, if there's any particular names I can mention.

[00:33:46] However, yes, the short answer is yes. And usually it's because either we caught 'em on a good day or a bad day. And also, you know, I've done my [00:34:00] research, so there'll be certain questions that I'll ask in the warmup or, you know, after we've recorded that peaks, that person's interest and, and act actually is either, either led to further work, like, you know, well, let's, let's do this again sometime.

[00:34:17] Or just finding out something about the individual I didn't know before and receiving a compliment. You know, just, just something nice because I think everybody likes to feel that they are seen and. It goes, it goes both ways. So, you know, to be told a compliment for acknowledging a part of their part of them that, uh, isn't often addressed.

[00:34:48] Or if it is, it's not done in the, in the res, the respectful or even pleasant way that they would hope for. It's, it's, it's those moments. They're small, often, [00:35:00] but very impactful. Impactful.

[00:35:01] Sarah: I, I, I'm, I'm interested in how you think about the audience at any point during the filmmaking process, because what strikes me in what you've just said is that that's very different, for example, from how a tabloid journalist might go about presenting the same people where they're very focused on perhaps telling a sensationalist story or perhaps pulling out something that may not even be quite right and.

[00:35:27] Probably wouldn't be the way that the person would want to present themselves, but they're thinking about the audience because they wanna sell the paper and that's their priority at that point. How do you think about your audience? Do you trust in the filmmaking process, the the opportunity to help somebody be themselves and that kind of connection with the person?

[00:35:48] How much are you thinking about who you are trying to connect with? Who's watching what they might wanna see and how do you do that? How do you make it feel relevant [00:36:00] for them as well?

[00:36:01] Richard: So working with in communications, as you know, is there is a, like rule number one is know your audience. Is it? So I've done lots of work within internal communications, for example, and the great thing about internal communications is there are staff surveys.

[00:36:18] So if I am filming the CEO for example, I am very aware that. Certain percentage of the audience would like said, CEO, to speak more on this particular topic or to be more authentic and stop reading off of a script or something like that. So, you know, I think, okay, how can I frame this? Let's get the CEO to be part of a series called In the Hot Scenes.

[00:36:50] And they answer five quick fire questions before we get into the serious stuff, you know, about what their favorite breakfast or [00:37:00] trip destination, whatever. Just something to make them feel more personal. And so yeah, internal comms very easy with that. 'cause we have data, data led decisions in terms of external communications, I.

[00:37:18] Cheekily. I think I will say that it goes back to what I, my dad said to me, make the TV or make the footage that you would want to watch.

[00:37:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:26] Richard: And so I sit there thinking, Hmm, you know, what I would like to know about this person is, you know, X, Y, and Z. So I, yeah, there's an element of that that I, I take in my approach, but then there's also, yeah, thinking who, what new audience perhaps, you know, would benefit from this person's story.

[00:37:54] So, you know, I, I grew up in, in East London, Hackney [00:38:00] back in the day when, um, it was a bit deprived and, you know, it didn't have much positive focus. However, I knew some wonderful people there. My dad was a very central community man and. So when I used to hear how Hackney was mentioned in the news, it really used to make me sad.

[00:38:25] And so I would, if I was interviewing someone who was quite high profile, I would let them know where I came from and I'd ask them to do like a quick shout out to a particular business or community group, whatever, or a youth group within Hackney. And then, you know, I would show that element to, to them.

[00:38:49] This, again, this is before social media. I mean, it'd be so much easier then, um, so much easier to do it now. But it's how, how can [00:39:00] I inspire a particular member, part of the audience uplift, promote. There is an element of that in what I do. I also intentionally. Choose to do certain roles because I'm often the only black man or person of color within that space.

[00:39:24] Mm-hmm. Because I'm a firm believer in that if you see it, you're more likely to know that you can be it. And it's like, hey, you could work in down the street as a black man and not just open doors or serve food. Like, hey, this is cool. So it's great. Like they've had a black videographer since I've left and I'm just like, I've reached out to him and I was like, oh my God, dude.

[00:39:51] Like, great.

[00:39:52] Yeah, this is amazing. I'm, I'm

[00:39:53] Richard: so proud. And so, yeah, I, I do think, not just of who's the [00:40:00] current audience, but who could this new audience be? 'cause that not only raises that individual's profile and, and reach, but it also, as I said, can inspire, educate, and inform those who are. A bit distant from, from the subject.

[00:40:15] Sarah: I like that you've brought a lot of yourself to that. Like, and I think you're entirely right, like if you are curious about something, if you wanna find out about something or if something is presented in the way that you would wanna watch, I think that's a great place to start, isn't it? And, and also bringing your own background, your own perspective.

[00:40:32] Like you say, being a a black man in an environment that feels very white privilege, you know, that's, that's probably, I imagine gonna give you a different perspective as well in itself. So I'd love to hear more about whether being behind the camera gives you, what you've learned from that, what you've learned about yourself, what that perspective gives you.

[00:40:53] I mean, evidently it's opened up incredible doors to incredible people all around the world. But what have you [00:41:00] reflected on and what's stayed with you as things that you kind of have built on for, for your own life and your own perspective on the work that you do? Now as well.

[00:41:11] Richard: Well, I love that question because it definitely has changed the way I perceive, not just the world, but myself, because one of the wonderful things about being a videographer to someone who's very high profile is that you, your job is to essentially become invisible so that that individual can behave in, in as the most natural way possible, and being invisible.

[00:41:41] You get to see that individual in many lights, many forms, and as someone who I believe I'm, I'm definitely more introverted than extrovert. I have grown up in a, being very quiet and very loud environment. [00:42:00] You know, I've managed to see that there are leaders who are similar to me, and they also need. Quiet time and space to recharge.

[00:42:11] And, you know, they, they really have to push into that extroverted tendencies or personality type in order to portray the, the characteristics that the world or the audience believes is what, how a leader should behave. So yeah, getting to see that hidden element, not because it's bad or they want to keep it from individuals, but it's because it's, it's, it's another layer into who they are as, as a, as a, as a person as you.

[00:42:50] And that helps me to connect with them even more. Even in even, yeah, in, in a deeper as, as a deeper level as well.

[00:42:58] Sarah: That's so interesting and [00:43:00] leads us really nicely into talking about the introvert space and, uh. I mean, start with what, tell us what that's all about and, and what led you to set it up.

[00:43:10] Richard: So it's a platform to encourage introverts to become the best versions of themselves, particularly in workplace environments.

[00:43:22] And it's also there to support education institutions, workplaces, to create more inclusive environments for, for introverts. And I set it up because it was only until I read a book from Susan Kane called Quiet, which I would now call essentially the Bible for introverts, that I realized that this quiet version of me who felt like I was something was wrong with me, that there was actually nothing wrong with me.

[00:43:51] There was nothing wrong with me. Um, I'm an introvert, I'm part of this wide community of deep thinkers, you know, great [00:44:00] communicators of people. Who just need a bit more time to recharge than, than the rest of the, their personality counterparts. And it then led me to look into or research what resources were available for introverts in the workplace.

[00:44:17] And there, there wasn't much. And I then spoke to the Guardian Masterclass because I, at the time was attending a couple of their courses and really enjoyed them. And yeah, they, they gave me a platform to create a workshop for introvert professionals, which seemed to do very well. And, you know, eight or so years later, I was still with them until they, uh, recently closed the, the whole masterclass program down.

[00:44:51] But now I'm with the standards, uh, forming the evening standard, doing the, the same as well. So the intra about space is that [00:45:00] hub. I have and continue, will continue to put all of the resources, the, the tools and toolkits and things that I've learned along the way and continue learning there for, for introverts and, and their allies to, to access freely.

[00:45:19] Sarah: I think one of the things that's particularly interesting is that there's a lot of social attitudes and assumptions about what we mean by introversion and what an introvert might be able to contribute, I suppose, and as you said earlier, with leaders, I think there's an, there's an assumption that leaders are the ultimate display of extrovert characteristics.

[00:45:44] That power is all about extroversion and, and yet is it, and the fact that you have these insights into leaders as real people and what they're like and how they need to. Recharge. How they need to [00:46:00] gain their energy, how they get the best from themselves. I, I think that's, that's very interesting. And I think you yourself, um, embody a lot of challenges to the assumptions that we make.

[00:46:11] So, for example, you've said before you're very comfortable speaking and I think there may be an assumption that introverts wouldn't wanna speak because people think it's the same as being shy. What do you think about some of those, those attitudes, assumptions? Do you come across them and what do they, what do they tell us?

[00:46:26] Richard: Indeed, I, I come across quite a few assumptions and I try to counter those with, by saying that introversion, extroversion, all, all that is about is how one gains or drains energy. You know, it's not, as you mentioned about being shy, also no one looks like an introvert. Mm-hmm. You know, in my masterclass as I, I do a celeb celebrity quiz to prove the point.

[00:46:51] You know, guess who, guess who's the introvert? Like a picture of. Michelle Obama and Barack Obama, and I've been doing this for years. No one ever gets all five [00:47:00] questions, right, like ever. That's very cool. Cool. Just to prove the point. And so taking it into the workplace, you're right. You know, there are, our workplace cultures unfortunately, increasingly reward extraversion.

[00:47:14] It's the squeaky wheel who gets decreased, you know, the one who dominates meetings, and unfortunately businesses don't realize that they're missing out. You know, there's some wonderful innovation talent there that their introverted colleagues have, and it's just, just knowing how to unlock that. And it's two, it's twofold.

[00:47:38] As I mentioned earlier, it's for the introverts themselves to understand that they have those qualities within them and how to express those in a comfortable way. And then it's for the, the, the institutions themselves to. Provide the platform in order for, for these introverts to thrive. Classic example, onboarding training.

[00:47:59] Yes, it's, [00:48:00] it's needed. It's wonderful. It, there are elements, especially, um, in the DEI aspect of it where protective characteristics that people are trained on how to, to inclusively, uh, relate to those where, you know, whether that's, you know, sex, gender, disability, et cetera. But the one thing that we all possess, a personality, no training is bizarre to me.

[00:48:25] And, and this is where I, um, that the introvert space, a toolkit created, uh, the toolkit for the inclusive management of introverts or Timmy as it's nicknamed. And that's also available on the introvert space. And it's, again, to just challenge these assumptions and provide, not just, not just challenge them, but then provide the tools, the, the.

[00:48:50] Techniques to create that inclusive environment for, for, for all personalities. With that focus on introversion, for sure,

[00:48:59] Sarah: be good to get [00:49:00] your views on. An aspect of that, which I think probably applies to many if not all ways of thinking about inclusivity, which is that sometimes it's framed as the problem of the person that's not feeling included.

[00:49:15] So with introverts, what do the introverts need to do to communicate better in a meeting? And that's kind of missing the point. But the fact that that thinking comes from the extroverts, things that the introverts have never heard. And actually it's everybody, isn't it? Of course it is. As with all inclusivity, it's everybody that needs to think about and understand how we get the best, the best from each other or or more from each other.

[00:49:46] By everyone being able to modify their behavior. Where do you start with that? How do you start to get that message across, especially to people who maybe are speaking so much, they're not listening enough.

[00:49:58] Richard: It, it will take time. [00:50:00] It will take time, and there's, you know, to take, for example, an element of the workplace that's very common meetings.

[00:50:07] So to, to, to, to use your point in terms of, you know, the introvert needs to do, do something versus everyone needs to do something. So the, everyone, the extrovert is high. You could help by putting agendas in, meeting invites. So that's very simple. What that does, it gives the introverts in your team more time to consider what points they will bring to the meeting because it may be unknown to certain extroverted colleagues that when you are in a meeting, if there is no agenda, this is the first time generally that the introverts in your team are having to sit, listen, and consider.

[00:50:49] Points they will raise, which takes time. And if your extroverted colleagues are quicker thinkers and they're just out there just talking, talking, talking, they will then [00:51:00] dominate the conversation, make the introverts possibly more reluctant to, to raise a point or, and you know, the meeting chair may perceive that the introverts are not interested.

[00:51:13] There's something wrong with them. Do you know how many times in the meeting I was quiet, someone would ask me, are you okay, Richard? Saying, I am okay. I'm just, this is a brainstorming session and everyone's talking at pace and, and I just need a bit of time to, to think

[00:51:28] Mm.

[00:51:28] Richard: To consider. So I can raise my point.

[00:51:30] So yes, extroverts agendas, but then for introverts themselves, when you're in the meeting, you know that I, I have in my introvert survival guide, again, a freed, um, ebook on my site. I. There are a few, few tips for, for introverts, and one of them is, you know, being among the first to, to speak. And it's not always just to raise a point.

[00:51:55] It could be literally just to ask people how their weekends was and all that, you know, all [00:52:00] those wonderful questions because what it does, it just helps to settle some of those nerves. It helps to be heard and seen, acknowledged. Just, just to get you ready to, to, to talk in the meeting. I also have a tip that I, I shared in the Guardian once called, uh, practice name calling.

[00:52:20] So if there was a dominant voice in the meeting, instead of doing that customary apologetic thing to, to interject. So it goes like, sorry, sorry. So sorry. So, so instead of doing that, just say, John, that's a great point. I'd just love to, um, add to that. There was something about saying someone's name that works, and Dale Carnegie said in how to win friends and influence people, that the sweetest sound to a person is the sound of their name.

[00:52:55] And there's probably some psychological child thing related to that. [00:53:00] However, I've, I've definitely found, found it works. And so there, there are definitely twofold elements. There's of tips where, yes, introverts, there are things we can do and, and should do in this current extrovert favored environment.

[00:53:17] However, high allies, extroverts, there are things that you can do in order to support your fellow introverted peers.

[00:53:26] Sarah: Fascinating. And how do you think about introversion, extroversion? You're describing an introvert or an extrovert, and I'm sure in some cases it's true that people see themselves that way and most of their behaviors are that way.

[00:53:39] But I would also imagine that there are probably many of us, I'd count myself in this, where we have both characteristics and depends on the context, depends on what's going on in the rest of our lives, depends on the meeting, the group of people, the whatever it is, the environment that we're in, what kind of behaviors [00:54:00] we bring.

[00:54:01] I think that possibly gives us a very interesting opportunity to think about this whole issue though, if we help people to think about their own behaviors, times when you might feel it's difficult to speak up or difficult to have a voice or whatever, versus times where. You find that more comfortable, whether that relates to your own confidence, whether it relates to what you are challenging yourself to do and, and how that makes you feel.

[00:54:36] And I think also being careful not to again, like put negativity on the introvert behaviors, because often that is when we listen best, we reflect best. We take a moment where calmer, we go away and actually absorb ideas better. And perhaps, I mean, for me, those might be the times when I am more [00:55:00] creative because I'm just less excited.

[00:55:05] I'm often excited in meeting. So my behaviors then will be extrovert because I wanna check my ideas in and I wanna bounce off other people. And I enjoy that kind of interaction. I, I, I love, you know. Talking with colleagues and, and, and batting ideas around and, you know, you have to get, get that. But there are definitely times where if I've been quieter, I'm kind of going away and thinking, oh, that wasn't, that was an interesting way of framing that, or, or that's challenged me to think differently about something.

[00:55:32] And those are the times where maybe you're more open to changing your mind, for example. I kind of lost what the question is in that, but it's, it's, it's kind of about how we are all a, well, we're probably all a mix of different characteristics. So are there ways that we can reflect on our, our ourselves to, to help us all change collective behaviors?

[00:55:54] Richard: Yeah. I, I think it makes me think of, uh, when Carl Jung, who came up with the term [00:56:00] introvert extrovert, was quoted saying that if there's no such thing as a pure introvert or pure extrovert and such a person would be found in a lunatic asylum now. Yeah. I dunno how true that is, but I, I, I get, I get the point, you know, we do slide up and down or left them right, whatever.

[00:56:17] Across the scale. And as, as you said, Sarah, you know, as our responsibilities change, as we grow age, et cetera, when I became a parent, I definitely had to slide more into my extroversion to, to keep my son entertained. And, and then there's the discipline element of being a parent and the rest of it like that, and your career ladder.

[00:56:42] As you, as you, as you climb, you gain more responsibilities. You may have to manage people again, the conversations, and they have to, you have to continue slide across that scale. And I've found that I'm leaning more into my extra virgin on a, on [00:57:00] a weekly basis because as you mentioned, there's a lot of public speaking I do now, and, but it just means I need to ensure that I make time for myself to recharge at these moments.

[00:57:15] If you were to look in my calendar, I have lunch booked as a meeting. That is my time, my space. I use that to recharge and do, do what I need to do in order to be ready for the next appointment. And so, yeah, I think once we are familiar with that change and continual cycle within one's life, that we can be more respectful of the fact that we need to consider the inclusivity of all personality taps because we will slide across the scale.

[00:57:57] We won't always be [00:58:00] on as an extrovert. Mm-hmm. And, and likewise for an an introvert.

[00:58:04] Sarah: This connects really nicely with a book that we talked about, we've talked about before, um, I'm particularly into at the moment, which is Matthew Side's Rebel Ideas, and that's all about cognitive diversity. And I think that's such an interesting way of thinking about diversity, that um, we need a range of ideas, backgrounds, ways of thinking, perspectives to come together so that we can see a situation or a problem or a challenge more fully and pull different ways that we might solve that problem.

[00:58:38] And I think it's such a common problem in organizations that we tend to recruit in our likeness because it's very natural, isn't it? You make a connection with somebody, you feel like you're gonna get 'em with them, they're gonna fit in inverted, and it's, it's a normal thing to do, but we often miss out on.

[00:58:59] The fact [00:59:00] that if we're all, if we're all too similar, then the ideas are gonna converge in one in one place and be too similar from each other. So we're missing out on that diversity of thinking. And I think this is one lens on that, different ways that people might engage and interact with each other.

[00:59:22] How do you, how do you reflect on that and what other things that we could do to, to improve our openness to introversion and extroversion?

[00:59:32] Richard: Yeah, indeed. I, I think that that element of groupthink can be dangerous. That as, as you described, and within some of my training, I speak with HR professionals and help them with writing their job descriptions, uh, or adverts, you know, job adverts and just letting them be aware of some of the wording that they use that may put off introverts.

[00:59:58] Such as [01:00:00] dynamism or, you know, coming from our dynamic team or, you know, fast-paced culture and it's, that may put off

[01:00:10] Sarah: that's making me just wanna go and hide, to be honest. That's why Absolutely. Bringing out my inner introvert,

[01:00:16] Richard: you know, there were some organizations who choose the words of the day, uh, in order to, to yeah.

[01:00:24] You know, stand out through the noise. There is a lot of noise out there. And that, I think Covid brought like peaks and troughs in terms of like, there was the, the great resignation. Then there was like, now everyone's not, now, no one's leaving and it's, it's hard to actually get, you know, get into any, any sort of organization.

[01:00:43] So there is and has been and continues to be a challenge for recruiters and I totally understand that. However, something I try to explain something as basic as the words used can make such a. Big difference, you know, these small changes. And [01:01:00] once you know, you have this talent, you know, in terms of retention, it's, it's about, again, you know, um, speaking to people, managers and getting them to, to either do personality tests with the team and understand, you know, what, what style of communication their team, members of their team prefer.

[01:01:23] Now, it's not like, I'm not saying you have to, you know, like some parents, and I really feel, feel for them all when they have, I know, three or four children and they cook four, three or four different meals every day, single day for them. Like, I'm not saying you need to do that. It's not that, but it's, it's understanding what the communicative needs are of the individuals in your team so that when you want to appeal to that.

[01:01:55] Particular individual or group of people, you have a better [01:02:00] understanding of what channel of communication would work, what type of wording would work, how long you need to give that individual or those individuals to, to reflect or get back to you. So yeah, it's, there are different stages and if we consider these different elements, we can move away from group think and towards that innovative, collaborative decision making culture that I think we all want and need as, as, as, as businesses and institutions.

[01:02:36] Ultimately,

[01:02:37] Sarah: it's vital that in the culture, it's people focused and that we have ways to help everybody to feel heard included that it's. There's an opportunity to be themselves and to share their perspective and to, to relate and to be, if you've been recruited in the first place, you've probably got a reason why [01:03:00] you are able to contribute to an organization.

[01:03:02] Um, sometimes things go wrong, but often there isn't a problem other than that the person isn't having the opportunity to contribute in the best way. And I think the more that we can create cultures that allow that to happen, the better. And the organization benefits from being able to get more from everybody.

[01:03:20] So, yeah, it's super interesting. I love that you're working in this area and I think it's, there's, there's so much more, you know, it's not talked about very much. And uh, I have a question for you about networking. So, I mean, I hate the word networking and I think even most extroverts, I hate the idea of networking.

[01:03:40] 'cause as soon as you say the idea of, but as soon as you say the word, everyone's like. So the shi Spain, it's like, it feels like it is not a natural conversation. I have lots of thoughts on that and how to make it feel better, but how could we all, how would you think, how could we all think about networking in a better way and make [01:04:00] those new connections that we all probably want to make, but without it feeling weird?

[01:04:05] Richard: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, I actually posted a, a YouTube shot on this very thing. It was like 60 seconds or like three tips,

[01:04:14] Sarah: but Oh, cool. That would be good to have the link for that and we can share it.

[01:04:17] Richard: Definitely. I'll do that. And the, the, the primary thing for me is yeah, that word networking, so reframe it as, as a conversation, you know, try to forget that word because that's essentially what it is.

[01:04:30] Mm-hmm. When, when we say we're in the office and, you know, we go to a different floor to talk to a different team, to, to work on something or to ask for request something of the. That is networking, you know, but we don't call it that. 'cause if we did, we probably would again be put off by doing that. But it is a conversation.

[01:04:53] You are trying to learn something from each other. You're not essentially trying to sell anything [01:05:00] long gone are the days where people are walking around just handing out business cards. It's, it's not that. It's, it's focusing on that connection that you mentioned, Sarah. It's about learning from individuals, learning, not selling, ask, ask open questions.

[01:05:13] Mm-hmm. And, um, so yeah, just first of all, change that. Yeah. Brilliant. It's not,

[01:05:20] Sarah: yeah, I completely agree. Absolutely. And I think that's, that's lovely because it sort of brought us full circle to what feels like our starting point was, which is that you have this ability, this talent for seeing the person.

[01:05:35] And that's what it feels to me. It was the sort of magic ingredient of, of your filmmaking and that you are. Furious, as you said about finding out more about the person. And I think if we start there, it's a kind of, it's a very natural thing. We wanna have conversations with other people, even those of us that are, you know, shy or, or whatever, where it feels awkward.

[01:05:57] The, there's still a curiosity. We still want, it's a [01:06:00] very human thing that we, that we need each other. So this has been fantastic. I've enjoyed this conversation so much and so much to explore. But I have a, a last question for you, which I ask all our guests, which is speaking to you as a human rigid, what's exciting you at the moment and what are you looking forward to?

[01:06:23] What's motivating you at the moment? And that's either in or out of work or both. And

[01:06:28] Richard: Yes, Sarah. I, I've really enjoyed the conversation. It's, it's been a wonderful start to my day and I, I really. I really feel and appreciate the passion that you also share for, for this topic. And it makes me feel,

[01:06:45] Sarah: oh,

[01:06:45] Richard: thank you.

[01:06:46] Increasingly alive and, and inspired and just, ugh. Yeah. Energetic. Oh, thanks. That's what I was, so in speaking of energy, what is exciting me right now? Uh, so at home I'm learning the piano. [01:07:00] It's something that I did, I started, um, during lockdown because I could no longer meet with my Spanish teacher for lockdown reasons.

[01:07:11] And I was like, oh, I wanna learn a language. And then I thought, Ooh, music is a language. There you go.

[01:07:15] Yeah.

[01:07:15] Richard: And brilliant. Yeah. My son is also, was, was learning the piano. I mean, he still does it at school, but he, he, he was grades ahead and I, I couldn't help him with his homework. Like, I'm like, I just stand there going.

[01:07:28] That sounds right. But yeah.

[01:07:31] Sarah: Are you learning a style or you just. Anything that comes your way.

[01:07:35] Richard: Oh, right. Yeah. So it's, it's all the classics at the moment. We're going through the, the, the, the romantic era of the, I don't know, 18 hundreds or something. But yeah, so that's where I'm at the moment.

[01:07:46] Sarah: Very cool.

[01:07:46] It's a hard instrument.

[01:07:48] Richard: It is, it is. And

[01:07:50] Sarah: although I really, I love that it's visual. I think it was the first instrument that I learned, and I think it helped me with subsequent music because you kind of got a visual, like [01:08:00] you say, visual language for where the notes go. Exactly. I still sort of think about it that way.

[01:08:05] Richard: That's a really good way to look at it, because it's almost like when you learn a particular European language Well, and that opens the doors to other European languages because of the Latin base and so forth. Like, oh, right. Yeah. Okay, I understand that. So that's outside. Um, inside of work, I, I referred to it earlier, Timmy, the, the, the toolkit for the inclusive management of introverts and mm-hmm.

[01:08:27] I'm really enjoying taking that around and speaking to HR professionals and people managers. And just, I am giving talks at the moment and in universities businesses that, that, that's really exciting me because, you know, I'm taking this, this topic, which is still relatively new. This, as I said, in spite of us all having personalities unless a scientist tells me otherwise.

[01:08:55] And just seeing where it goes, where, how it grows. [01:09:00] Because for me, there's very few things in life being sweeter than that feeling of being reintroduced to, to, to oneself. It's, it's just a remarkable feeling and it gives you a sense of power that you just didn't realize that you had before. So. That's what's exciting me at the moment.

[01:09:18] Ah,

[01:09:18] Sarah: that's such a wonderful note to end on. I love that idea, that sentiment. Thank you so much. I hope that listeners have enjoyed this. I'm sure they will have done. I'm gonna be confidence. As much as I've enjoyed having the conversation, it would be great to have some of your links, Richard, which we can share in the show notes.

[01:09:38] But thank you everyone for listening. Um, I hope you can like, and share this podcast, uh, always helps us and, um, come back and listen to more episodes. So thank you and bye for [01:10:00] now.