Hannah Williams on visual communication

[00:00:00] Sarah: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organizations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me in hearing from our brilliant guests.

[00:00:24] My guest in this episode is a talented communicator. In fact, she's turned communication into a business, but perhaps not in the ways that might first spring to mind. Hannah Williams is a live illustrator and founder of her own business, scribble Inc. She uses visual storytelling to create illustrations at events and workshops.

[00:00:44] It's amazing watching Hannah do this in real time, capturing the key ideas from her presentation or from what's happening in a room and turning those into a visual record. This obviously takes artistic skill, but as you'll hear us discuss, it goes much deeper than that, too, [00:01:00] revealing how we as humans process and think about ideas and communication.

[00:01:05] Hannah talks about how she realized this was a good skill to have, how she's grown it into a business, and what she's learned from being a fly on the wall at so many different events. We discuss what happens when things don't work out, how you expect, and when something that might seem like a mistake or a failure can actually create a better alternative.

[00:01:25] And Hannah shares some tips for how we could all use these types of skills in ways that are easy to do. I think this is a fascinating insight into ways of seeing the world, and I'm sure you'll enjoy hearing from Hannah. Please do like, subscribe and share the show, and as always, please do send me your feedback and any ideas for future guests.

[00:01:48] Hi Hannah. Thanks for joining me on the podcast today. And this will be our most long distance podcast so far, because we're chatting while you are in Singapore. That's right. [00:02:00] Which is really, really exciting. You are over this year, so I think it's, um, just after nine o'clock in C 9:00 AM in Cambridge, uk.

[00:02:08] And I guess just after 5:00 PM for you.

[00:02:11] Hannah: That's correct, Sarah. Yeah, I'm all the way over here, so I just love this that we can still have our connection.

[00:02:17] Sarah: It's, it's amazing, isn't it? Isn't it? Yeah. So why are you over in Singapore?

[00:02:23] Hannah: Oh my gosh. It is been a whirlwind in the last year. I've gotten engaged, gotten married, moved to the other side of the world.

[00:02:31] All things were planned in different timescales. But we are here for my husband, for his job, and I have been able to expand my business to Singapore as well while still supporting my UK clients and all the wonderful companies in between as well. And I think that's testament to the digital approach is that yeah, we are so connected in this world and wherever an opportunity takes you, you [00:03:00] still have the chance to rebuild, connect.

[00:03:03] Yeah. And reflect.

[00:03:04] Sarah: Yeah. And at the same time, you kind of planted yourself in a completely different environment and culture and that must be, I don't know, does that sort of, uh, help with the creativity and different perspectives and things?

[00:03:15] Hannah: Definitely, a hundred percent. I've always said environment has shaped who I am.

[00:03:21] And I grew up in Shashi, which is super rural. I always say like my best friend was probably a sheep when I was a small. And I thought at the time that moving to London was the biggest journey I could ever make. And we made that move in 2022. And I loved London. I found it very overwhelming, very overstimulating, but a place that shaped me and formed.

[00:03:46] It was very formative, uh, in my journey through Scribble Inc. And through me as a person. But moving to Singapore, it really blindsided me. Actually. I remember my husband saying, uh, there's an opportunity. I [00:04:00] think we should move outta London. We were both losing a little bit of love with the city. We love the people, but the place itself, we felt like we were sort of not outgrowing, but out shifting.

[00:04:11] It was less of a, an outperforming and more of a change that was necessary. We felt a change coming and he said, what about Singapore? And I went, oh, all right. Yeah, sure. We'll move to Singapore. Lo and behold, here we are. Um, I think that was testament to my love of change and growth.

[00:04:32] Sarah: I love it, and I'm, so I'm gonna be asking you a lot more about that.

[00:04:36] But first, uh, um, I guess we should kind of, uh, ask you to explain what you do, the work that you do.

[00:04:43] Hannah: I know. Well, yeah. We kind of jumped into the really juice. I know.

[00:04:47] Sarah: Well, it's, it's unavoidable. You're in an exciting place and it's, it's like you've had such an adventure in the last 12 months, so, but yes.

[00:04:55] Yes. Go ahead. Tell us about your work.

[00:04:57] Hannah: Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate it because it's, uh, [00:05:00] something that's really personal to me and my vision has always been to try and help connect people and ideas through visuals. And that formed for me as a child where I felt misunderstood and misaligned from the education system.

[00:05:15] I really. Thrived when I could draw ideas and rather than being talked at or having to read lots of information on pages, which never sunk in, I drew it and to understand the world around me and the world inside me as well as I was growing, I drew it. And that followed me all the way to studying illustration at university in Manchester.

[00:05:39] And I would illustrate every single lecture I was in every seminar because, as I said, coming from Schroer, Manchester was a metropolis. There were so many characters and things to learn and processes that in the art world that I'd never heard of. I was very overstimulated, overwhelmed. So I draw everything.

[00:05:57] And whilst I was there, I was [00:06:00] sort of spotted by my lecturers and also a company in Manchester that was a very complex industry. And I, they found, well, they helped me discover actually, 'cause I think when things are so innate to us, we don't see them as special, which is criminal, but it's true. We, we think they're normal.

[00:06:19] And what these people around me helped me realize was I had a skill where I could illustrate at the speed of speech. So I could draw as people spoke and create a one page visual or a mural, which I didn't realize was special. That was just how my brain worked. And yet they showed the commercial side the viable service-based version of my skill.

[00:06:44] And that's where it grew. So I was 22, I'd just graduated and I incorporated my first limited company. Scribble Inc. Where we help industries, organizations, and teams communicate visually to tell [00:07:00] stronger, more engaging stories.

[00:07:01] Sarah: That's awesome. And so we've known each other, I think four years. Yeah. And you've been to the event that I organized, speak to the Human also in Cambridge.

[00:07:12] And you've been our live illustrator every year and hopefully for many more years. And it is just amazing to see you working. So we set you up at the back of the room, which is, kind of has its own magic to it because people don't see you working as you work. They kind of are listening to the speakers and then turn around and you've been evolving, creating this illustration as you go on the, uh, on a large piece that's, uh, a piece of paper that's stuck up to the wall and you're capturing the ideas that you are hearing and you turn it into this.

[00:07:51] Beautiful, colorful, wonderful illustration that people just respond to. And I mean it, it's [00:08:00] incredible seeing it sort of come to life and people love it and that sort of way of visualizing the ideas that we are hearing and capturing it in quite a different way, I think from the way that we're often sort of processing stuff when we're hearing it.

[00:08:11] So it's fantastic seeing you work and it adds a different dimension, I think, to the ideas that we are sharing during the event. So I love having you there. It's absolutely brilliant.

[00:08:25] Hannah: I love being that. And I will take just a moment to sincerely thank you and the Acton team because the experience and the space that you curate is so unlike anywhere else I've worked in or even been present in as an attendee.

[00:08:42] It's this, there's this magic to the acton. Event where people from different industries of different disciplines, but with the same mission come into a room and just celebrate one another and celebrate the act of connection. It's,

[00:08:59] Sarah: yes,

[00:08:59] Hannah: [00:09:00] it's pure joy and every year we create something and, and that's part of what I do as well.

[00:09:06] I cannot create from nothing. I have to be inspired. And the people who speak there and share their stories and share their insights are the ones actually creating the piece. The finished piece. Yes. I'm me merely the pen in between. It's their stories, it's their ownership. And I think when they see it visually, they have a, a moment of almost having a mirror held up to them.

[00:09:29] Yeah. And they get to see their story played back to them. Yeah. In a way they've never seen before. So that I, that's where I think some of the. Or comes in, it's not necessarily about it being a good drawing or whatever a good drawing looks like. It's, it's seeing themselves through the eyes of someone else who genuinely appreciates what they've created on that day.

[00:09:52] Yeah. And that's what, like the biggest joy I can have doing what I do.

[00:09:57] Sarah: That's fantastic. And uh, just [00:10:00] to say thank you so much for saying that about the event, that's, that's wonderful. All true. I'm really fascinated though about how you, how you process the ideas that you hear because I mean, it's amazing, like you said, you capture it in the moment, but when you're trying to capture somebody's whole talk and you don't even know yet what they're going to say, how do you know what to focus on?

[00:10:25] How do you kind of, um. 'cause you somehow end up having pulled out the key points from what they're saying without knowing what those are in advance. How, how is what's going on in your brain, Hannah,

[00:10:35] Hannah: that is such, I love this question because understanding focus means understanding someone's purpose. I believe so.

[00:10:44] From experience, one of my favorite parts of the journey, it's never just about the day, it's about the buildup. So a real priority for me in, in the relationship that's being built as the live scribe and the organizer is to plan in [00:11:00] a discovery call. So before the event? Mm-hmm. Generally two weeks before where everything sort of in place, the excitement's there, it's building.

[00:11:08] I'll have a chat with the, the organizer and we'll go through some really key details of the event. So the, the format, how things are being delivered. Is it visual, unspoken, where are they gonna stand? What's the purpose of people coming together? So why. Why are people excited to come to this? What are they expecting from the event?

[00:11:29] Who else is gonna be there? What kind of delegates are there? And ultimately, what's the takeaway? So when people have left this event, what do we want them to leave thinking about or to act upon?

[00:11:42] Sarah: And just to sort of interrupt for one second, I suppose we should clarify. You, you're doing quite a range of different types of events.

[00:11:48] So some of them are in-house kind of, I suppose, workshops or get togethers. Some of them are external conferences. Yeah. Some of them are online. Is that right? They're They're all quite different. That's

[00:11:58] Hannah: exactly it. So [00:12:00] especially like you said, if it's onsite and it's all one team, well everyone already knows each other.

[00:12:05] So then the output isn't necessarily to connect and build a network 'cause they probably already know each other. Similarly, if it's a digital event, how are we gonna keep communication lines open post-event if we're in different areas around the world. It's that sort of thing. Then I almost call it my lens.

[00:12:23] So like a glasses, like rose tinted glasses, minor illustrated tinted glasses, purpose tinted glasses, where whilst I'm in the event, I'm looking through that lens. So whatever the purpose is that we spoke about, that's what I look through. So any conversation, any speaker, any keynote talk, that's the lens I'm looking through and I can almost guide everything back to the purpose of why we're there.

[00:12:54] And I think that's the, the key to distilling the information. And the other thing to mention, I dunno [00:13:00] what, I dunno, the slides, I dunno what the content is gonna be. I'm, I am a witness to the magic of the day, just like the attendees. Yes, I know the, the timeline and the agenda, but I don't know what they're going to talk about necessarily.

[00:13:15] So it's a real act of active listening. Yeah. And never. Knowing that I'll never need to respond. My job is to absorb. So I actively listen. I absorb, and then I distill. So I know that my job on that day is to create the most clear and cohesive and engaging piece of artwork that depicts the day. And that's a, that's a really lovely parameter almost to being present, which I think we all try and strive towards, especially when in today's age, it's so noisy.

[00:13:51] We're bombarded with adverts and social media, all the emails constantly coming in. For me, it's like a, [00:14:00] a meditative flow that my purpose for the next eight hours is to be totally present. And when I find that sense of flow, it's so rewarding and I find so deep connection from the people in the ring.

[00:14:16] People on a call. It doesn't necessarily matter the format, but it's an opportunity to really listen. And that's, it's quite rare, I think.

[00:14:26] Sarah: Uh, absolutely. It's a, it's a rare skill, I think. And, um, huge credit to you. I think it almost like listening to you and that ability to understand how to communicate what you're talking about, uh, with understanding the purpose and seeing everything through that lens is so important.

[00:14:46] But it, it's like a form of intelligence. I mean, we talk about iq, we talk about emotional intelligence, but this is, I dunno, maybe communication intelligence or, or something like that where you are listening so hard [00:15:00] to be present so much as you're saying. Um, but to try and get to the key points of, through that sort of purpose lens that you're describing and that ability that you have then to express those ideas and.

[00:15:15] Bring the creativity that you have as well on top of it. It's just, it, it, it's amazing watching it develop. So thank you Sarah. And kind of moving us onto a slightly different thought, I mean, you are in so many different events and I guess you have a fly on the walls sort of opportunity to listen to lots of different presentations or ways that people try to connect with a room full of people that I think that you have a really incredible, valuable perspective.

[00:15:48] You must have been exposed to all sorts of different talks and presentations and that gives you sort of fascinating insight. So I'd love to hear what you think about what you've noticed, [00:16:00] what makes really good presentations, what makes really strong and impactful communication that people remember at an event.

[00:16:09] And I. Why does it go wrong?

[00:16:13] Hannah: What do you think? My, I'm up to my eyeballs in nd eights, so no names. Yes, absolutely. It's such a good question. And it is, it is. It is a privilege actually from the ages. So now 22 to 28, I've almost parachuted, I'd suppose is the best word to describe it, into, I think we counted recently 44 industries across.

[00:16:39] Wow. Which in six years is insane. It's, it is a privilege. Um, and actually what I've noticed is underlying all of those industries, whether it's healthcare, transport, construction, finance, legal, whichever industry, the underlying theme is. How do we [00:17:00] value our people so they can bring their best version of themselves to each day?

[00:17:05] That is crucial. It's, it's so universal. It blows my mind and it's, it's only taken me, I've probably noticed this trend about four years in, and I suppose being an outsider, it was almost like starting from day one every time. But as those day ones compounded over six years, I started to realize, oh, these, these people, they're people.

[00:17:33] That's the underlying thing. It doesn't matter what, whether you are a leader, whether you are part of the team in marketing, in hr, I've met these teams and they are so personal and they are so different. But underlying all of that, they are people and they are, each one of them curiously, finding out how they can be the best version of themselves and bring the best.

[00:17:58] Action to the team that [00:18:00] they're in and the best outcome to the company they're in. And then the best opportunity to the, you know, bigger than that, it's, it's such a privilege to be able to see that in every different version.

[00:18:13] Sarah: Mm.

[00:18:13] Hannah: And then the sort of humbling reminder that you are one person and all you can do is your best.

[00:18:20] Yeah. And try and incrementally improve that, but also understand that you're fallible and Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna just try and do your thing and collaborate with the people you can. So that's been been a really interesting journey. Like you say, I have seen the best and worst of it, purely from a numbers game.

[00:18:45] I've been in, I think, between 300 and 500 events every year. Mm. I've seen so many. I've been exposed to so many. But the best of the best I see do have a thing in common, [00:19:00] and it's the ability to use points and a framework to what you're talking about. Mm-hmm. That's not to say that it's not human, because the best people do, they bring stories, they bring anecdotes and very personal experiences to the table, but they do it in a.

[00:19:19] In a fed way, in almost like a menu style. So I'm gonna start you with this. This is the main course that you need to take, like really get the context and here's your sweet takeaways. Love that analogy.

[00:19:31] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:19:31] Hannah: And that's what an expert that I've worked with a few times. He says between three and five, three and five points is the human sweet spot that people remember.

[00:19:40] And one of my, I love this guy, he's a really good friend, Jeremy Connell. Wait, I need to give it a shout. He, I've had the pigeon of illustrating him a few times and he's got these four words and he says, brevity, levity, clarity, charity. And it conclude that in your speech. So brevity how [00:20:00] like make sure that it's short enough that people are listening.

[00:20:03] Levity include funny moments that's really human brain sparks up when they, when they chuckle. Not to say that it can't be deep and meaningful. Clarity, that's part of my world. How clear and concise can we make the message? And then charity gives something share. It's, it's a, a privilege to be able to stand up and share your experience.

[00:20:24] Every single person has a talk in them, and no one has the same experience as you. So

[00:20:30] Sarah: that's a brilliant way of thinking about it, isn't it? And uh, um, yeah, I've come across Jeremy a few times, uh, and he's, he's a master of communication and storytelling and, and all of that. And, uh, but having something that you can hold onto that are sort of key things to remember, but yes, absolutely.

[00:20:49] That captures something really essential, doesn't it? Yeah. And where people go wrong, is it about not hitting those points, or is it, are there other [00:21:00] things that are going on?

[00:21:01] Hannah: I do, you know, I don't even think going wrong means not being nervous. Mm-hmm. I think people who have gone wrong actually have avoided the emotion.

[00:21:12] To what they're talking to. Mm-hmm. And I've listened to incredibly moving, deeply haunting human experiences. And it's the people who can connect authentically to that emotion and talk from that place that you connect with. When, when someone's not in that moment, when they're trying to almost clinically describe, they've sanitized it to the point where you've lost the message in there.

[00:21:43] That's when I can't really say it's gone wrong. Public speaking is scary. It's an illustrator. Absolutely. This is such a unique, something that I love to do is speak, because it's so different from my every day, my drawing. I like to talk about it as a, as a [00:22:00] muscle. So as an illustrator, my sketchbook is my training pitch.

[00:22:04] Not that I, that's as far as my football allergies go by the way, but that, that sketchbook is my training pitch. Life scaring is my match day. That's my really fun day where I get to show off and celebrate and get people involved, get people excited. But the other part is the speaking about it, the storytelling, and part of public speaking.

[00:22:26] Whether it goes right, whether it goes wrong, is how exposed you've been to the experience. How many times have you tried to talk about it? Failed to talk, you know, failed is such a funny word. There's such so many negative connotations around failure, but it just means that you're trying, just means that you've tried, you know?

[00:22:46] Yeah.

[00:22:47] Sarah: It's funny that you picked up that point actually, because I'm slightly berating myself for using the phrase going wrong, because this year one of our main themes is around what we're calling permission to fail, which I guess we are considering [00:23:00] in a, in the broadest possible way. So sometimes. If you are, and I'm gonna be giving away a little bit here about who I've lined up as our keynote speaker.

[00:23:10] If you are leading a mountain mountain expedition, failure could be fatal. Whereas in other contexts, if you are an improviser, for example, failure can be your point of humor and can be the thing that actually it makes it easier and better to connect with the audience and brings out an opportunity for you.

[00:23:31] So, um, failure is a very wide spectrum of things, and often failure leads us to understanding something better and to improving into innovating. And I don't think that we can really innovate very well if we don't experience failure. So failure's really important. I, so, I suppose, yes, I'm, I'm slightly berating myself for using the phrase going wrong, but even so, I think it's interesting around presenting how.

[00:23:58] People do make that [00:24:00] connection with an audience. And I, I really hear and agree with what you're saying about authenticity and emotional connection and that being human. And it is entirely the essence of speak to the human, that we want to make that kind of emotional connection. And certainly when I'm looking for speakers to come to our event, I'm looking for an authenticity.

[00:24:23] So I'm not necessarily looking for the people that are the most, you know, polished speakers. I mean, sometimes of course they're gonna be amazing and they're probably very experienced in things I'm, but I'm not necessarily looking for those people. Sometimes people are a lot less experienced as speakers or they don't quite fit that mold, but they are authentic and they have a way of making that connection and.

[00:24:47] We had a couple of examples of that last year, I think, where we had incredibly powerful stories from people I know.

[00:24:54] Hannah: Which ones you think

[00:24:55] Sarah: Yes. Yeah. Sort of shivers down your spine, kind of emotional connection [00:25:00] that left people in the room. Quite emotional and, uh, I think, yeah, I, I certainly, I suppose we've got different hats, haven't we?

[00:25:07] I'm looking for curating an event that is powerful and you're looking for capturing it. Yeah. But coming at it from both of those perspectives, I think we are finding the same thing. That is a key ingredient that you wanna achieve and give people from. That's, that's the charity bit as a, as an event organizer or illustrator, is the charity bit, is giving people an amazing experience of being there and feeling that connection both with an emotional, meaningful part of the content, but also with the other people that they're with and feeling like, you know, that they're sort of creating a sense of belonging, um, in the room.

[00:25:45] Definitely. So. To move us on a little bit, I'd love to ask you if there are things that are hard to capture and things that sometimes might even be, I dunno, really challenge you as things to capture and I, [00:26:00] yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna anticipate what that might be, but let me, let me leave that for you to answer.

[00:26:06] Hannah: The difficult things to capture are really interesting. There's sort of two options that immediately present in my mind and just to say, when we are talking, when I talk to anyone, I see it in my head. So it's how quickly can I draw it? That's the premise of how my brain works. It's very squiggly, it's very crazy, but it, that's how it happens.

[00:26:27] So I immediately see two paths in my mind. When you say difficult things to draw, there's the one side which is literally difficult. Content. Content, the mm-hmm. The sort of. The industry it's in. One of the industry I started in was cybersecurity. So I feel like I got dropped in, not even at the deep end, but the ocean.

[00:26:49] I got dropped in so deep. I was 19 years old, never even heard of cybersecurity and totally left my own devices to understand what it meant, try and help the [00:27:00] client understand what was going on. Through drawings, it was brilliant. As a 19-year-old, I was having the best time because it was so different from what I already knew, and I'm a sponge.

[00:27:10] I just want to absorb and learn all the time. So I think that's path one is the content path. Two, the difficult is the context. So whether that's some examples of what have been really difficult, actually is probably the best way to describe it. A room with only four people in four directors, that was so difficult.

[00:27:34] That was like having. A camera right behind my head. But you know, I had four people watching, not just talking to each other, but watching me. So I was, that's terrifying. Intense. Very, very intense. When I'd actually much rather there be 300 people in the room and then I've got 300 opportunities to excite and inspire.

[00:27:56] They can get to their own devices. Come to me every so often, [00:28:00] four people in one room, really intense. The other one, which happens very rarely. Less. Yeah, it's less common than usual. So the usual setup would be conference, someone speaking, I'm at the back of the room, like Actian Illustrate the day, depict it, show at the end.

[00:28:19] Brilliant. Love that approach. The second approach is the clients that I work with on a, a regular basis. So going into their workshops, their meetings, and I say this is difficult with a sort of half smile because. In those environments. I'm a trusted consultant. I'm trusted that when the client is talking about their, their strategy, their five year strategy, their idea of communication with the client, their client, I'm the one that has to sort of put my hand up slowly and go, actually doesn't make sense.

[00:28:56] What you are saying is contradicting what you said earlier. [00:29:00]

[00:29:00] Sarah: Oh, wow. And some, that's

[00:29:01] Hannah: great. It's saying the stupid question, the difficult question. The one that someone in the team might feel embarrassed to ask, they might need to clarify. So then it's my job to read the room is sort of workshop size of 20, 25 people and go, I actually don't understand.

[00:29:19] But what that allows for the rest of the team is to go, thank God I didn't know what they were read about either.

[00:29:26] Sarah: Wow. That's such a valuable role that gave people all open to that, which I would hope in most. Positive environments, they would be. Yeah. That's such a valuable role that you are bringing in by Yeah.

[00:29:40] Being, being able to ask that question.

[00:29:43] Hannah: Exactly. And I think it's also a really a similar process of when the speakers are show the, held the mirror up to them and shown their speech in those environments. It's me holding the mirror up to the leaders in that team and saying, [00:30:00] actually, we can make this clearer for the client.

[00:30:02] Especially when it's a really complex industry and a complex product or service. I'm the one that's actually the most, the closest to the client. Because this isn't my industry, this isn't my every day. I don't need the details. Yes. Yeah. And that's those clients that understand that and really take advantage and go, yeah, Hannah, let's get Hannah in because she's the one that can ask those questions that we're all too scared to ask.

[00:30:26] Yeah, that's a privilege. But it's difficult. It's still, I'm still human. I'm still going. I really don't wanna say, this doesn't make sense because they're scary. And then I do, and then it's re, it's received with so much gratitude because we're going, yes, if this isn't right now, it means we can be better for our clients.

[00:30:44] And that's, yeah. So important. It's

[00:30:46] Sarah: almost a barometer for like, how. In my mind, how likely that organization or that team is yes, to succeed in what they're trying to do. Because if they are open to rethinking or to, I suppose they could see it as a [00:31:00] challenge, couldn't they? But instead it's, there's enormous value in somebody saying, hang on a minute, there's a little bit of a contradiction here.

[00:31:06] Or This isn't clear. Yeah. What an incredible insight for people who may not have been able to see it themselves. Because often when we're working really deeply on something ourselves, we've got our head right in it. And it's really difficult to get that sort of, um, overview and that overarching perspective and to sort of pan out, you know, and having somebody ask that question if they can see it and get hold of it and be really see it as a constructive and helpful thing and be appreciative of it and respond.

[00:31:35] That to me is a barometer of whether they are likely then to do something positive that helps them, or they kind of put up walls, get a bit defensive, then. You know, that's, uh, that's an indication that maybe things aren't gonna be quite right for them.

[00:31:50] Hannah: We've nailed it. Absolutely nailed it. One of my favorite experiences ever in the cybersecurity industry was illustrating this lifecycle of [00:32:00] information and one director going, that's exactly what I thought it was great.

[00:32:05] And the other one going, hang on, that's the opposite of what I thought it was. Oh, wow. The opportunity for failure has been actually, we, that is the moment of failure, but that's the moment of, of ability to change as well. Yes. So it's, it's difficult. So as you as the question, difficult subject or difficult context, that is difficult, but it's so rewarding as well.

[00:32:30] It's so exciting because that's. That's live in a different way. Live scribing for conferences is brilliant 'cause it's in the room, it's magic happening. But this sort of live is problem solving in the moment. Yeah. And getting people on the same page in the moment, which is, is so exciting.

[00:32:50] Sarah: Well, what you've just touched on there as well with is a different layer as well onto this of, of uncovering that two people have conceived things in quite a [00:33:00] different way that they may not realize because they're probably using the same terms and talking about things as if there's a shared understanding of what they are.

[00:33:08] Yeah. And the fact that you've brought in a different way of trying to capture that thinking. And between them, they've kind of gone, well, one of them said Yes, that's absolutely how I see it. And the other one is like, hang on, that's not quite right. Yeah. What an, an important sort of revelation that is in having helped them to kind of articulate and visualize their own.

[00:33:32] Conceptualization of, of an idea and go, oh, right. I'd say we, we, we need to dig into that and understand where is our common agreement? What, what does our sort of mutual understanding of this need to be in a way that they may not even have realized until it resulted in some sort of symptomatic problem down the path.

[00:33:55] Hannah: That's it, isn't it? It's the getting ahead. Almost like the, seeing the [00:34:00] strategy on the wall every day. Once you've nailed that, once you've had the difficult conversation, you get the visual cue every day, what the plan is, where we're gonna end up, and what the actions are. Every single incremental step to get there.

[00:34:14] And everyone's aligned. Yeah, everyone's on the same page. You're sort of singing from the same hymn sheet is probably the best way to describe it, but that's a really exciting process to go through. It's messy. It's, you know, the output is beautiful and concise and coherent and. Visually it aligns to the brand, but the process to get there is very different.

[00:34:34] It's more of a project approach where you need to get into those details to then create this one pager. That, and the other part is, like we touched on earlier, you value everyone's input that as well, you get the mm-hmm. The voice of every single one in the team, and they've all agreed to it along the way.

[00:34:54] So you get buy-in, you know, that people have actually co-created this. And [00:35:00] I love the idea that a thousand a picture speaks of a thousand words, but if that picture saying the wrong thousand words, then you're probably heading down the wrong path this way, you know, that everyone has had chance to input and are clear on it.

[00:35:15] Sarah: Yeah. You've got, you're touching on so many, so many different aspects that this surfaces this whole process. It's sort of, yeah. It's um, how do I express ideas? How do I get buy-in from people? How, you know. How do I sort of connect this to whether I'm motivated to do it or not? You know, so many different aspects.

[00:35:34] Yeah. And I think it gets to how human brains work as well because I've seen this in person. People absolutely love turning around in the room and speak to the human and seeing what you've created. And it's this kind of moment of, oh wow, look at that. And they, they come to you sort of to chat in the coffee break or they just look at it on the way out to, to get the refreshments and things and you see that response.

[00:35:58] And people love [00:36:00] visual

[00:36:01] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:36:02] Sarah: Stuff in front of them. They respond

[00:36:04] Hannah: visceral

[00:36:04] Sarah: so well to it. I'm just interested in why you think that is. What is it about the human brain that means that we respond like that to visual stuff? It's

[00:36:14] Hannah: a really good question. Why we respond to visuals. I think there's probably three parts in my mind, again, seeing the three parts.

[00:36:22] Um, the first is it's innately human visual is an innate. Form of communication for us as humans. You know, cave drawings go back 40,000 years. We would cave drawing as an innate way of capturing information and telling future generations of the ox that lives in this field or the, the map of where we live, our environment.

[00:36:45] So naturally we are geared towards that with our eyes. We see visuals, we understand information. I think the second thing is the science part behind it. So the largest segment for learning styles in our [00:37:00] population are visual learners, is 65% of the population. So I like to think in each room when you are giving a speech, when you're trying to engage that room and share information that's pertinent to them and interesting, how are you doing it?

[00:37:16] Are you putting a PowerPoint slide up with 20 lines of words that no one can read? Or are you putting one big, impactful word on there, or a gif or a picture that can help tell that story? What, what are you doing? Because 65% of that room will be geared to visual. That's, that's the science behind it. The third version is it's, it's the inner child.

[00:37:45] It's the thing that we all love doing as children yet has been taught out of us over the years. It's either been shamed or it's been deprioritized or you just don't have time for it. As an [00:38:00] adult, they're all very real reasons and not excuses. They are traumatic sometimes, you know, if you've loved drawing as a child in an art class, your art teacher said you can do better, or, that's not very realistic.

[00:38:14] That's a really traumatic experience for a 13-year-old, and actually what I do is a demonstration to people. I'm an adult who draws every day I get to go into these incredible experiences and spaces where I demonstrate that it's a very small, I'm not gonna say a protest because it's not on the grand scale of life, but it is, it's a visual pew me existing as a person doing what I do.

[00:38:43] Coming into your very professional workspace to draw on the wall is a funny thing to watch as another human, as another adult watching me, you can go. She, she understands what we're doing. So she, and she's a professional and [00:39:00] is this doing this well? She draws every day. That's so fun. And I, my inner child speaks to your inner child and it's a permission from me to go, this is serious and fun at the same time, come join in.

[00:39:15] Sarah: That's so, I, I think that is so interesting and I, I, I wonder if it reflects. Sort of social and cultural perceptions that we think intellectual stuff has to be in the form of complicated words, which drives me mad as a communicator, because even if we're sticking with words, the words don't have to be complicated in order to convey a powerful idea or a really clever thought or something.

[00:39:44] In fact, often quite the opposite. Yeah. If you wanna get an idea through to somebody, make it simple, make it stick, make it memorable. And often if you overcomplicate things with too many words or too complicated words, it's, it's the antithesis of that. [00:40:00] But that is such an interesting reflection of maybe we just don't take visual form seriously enough.

[00:40:06] Yeah. Or, or we don't think it's somehow as clever. I don't know. Is that, is that how you feel about it?

[00:40:12] Hannah: Yeah, I do. I'm, I feel very strongly about. The impact of deprioritizing creativity in schools. I'm incredibly passionate about it. The work of, so Ken Robinson is, oh my gosh, absolutely brilliant, fundamental, and he says that we, we should create a culture where everyone that have their ideas valued.

[00:40:37] And I fundamentally believe the education system limits that opportunity in the sense that we are putting to check boxes, we're told to take exams aren't allowed to play in a way that actually now as adults is so necessary. We need to play and find curiosity and [00:41:00] imagination in our work to be able to become successful.

[00:41:03] And I don't think success should be limited to finance or status success. Absolutely. The ability to find your purpose within the work that you do. Value that you gain from exploration and expression, which I find in my work and watching that as an outsider. So someone at an event like Speak to the Human, they see me in Flow state and they go, oh, I want a bit of the hash.

[00:41:32] They really want a bit of that.

[00:41:35] Sarah: So if, can we all do more of this? And if there are ways that we could use some of the skills that you've got and the techniques that you use more ourselves, I don't know, for being in a meeting and capturing ideas or jotting stuff down when we're trying to remember it or something.

[00:41:55] How could we cultivate those skills ourselves without being an amazing an artist as you [00:42:00] are? And how might we start sort of thinking about how and when to use them?

[00:42:04] Hannah: I love this because it's a question I get all the time, but at advance,

[00:42:08] Sarah: do you? Interesting. Yeah, we're

[00:42:10] Hannah: going. I wish I could draw. I wish I was as creative.

[00:42:15] Now I'm will die on a hill for this statement that we are all innately creative. If you are human, you are innately creative. I fundamentally believe this. And the reminder that I tell people is that creative isn't a title. It's a mindset. And when you have the opportunity to be creative, you take it every opportunity that you get, every time.

[00:42:39] You could choose to be curious. It's the consistency of curiosity that is, it's a discipline. Creativity isn't just in you. In me because. We have been told by whoever made us, whatever, made us that, oh, you are going to be an artist. You are the creative one. Musician, creative, oh, data [00:43:00] analyst. No, sorry, not creative.

[00:43:02] It doesn't work like that. It's the commitment and consistency every day to choose creativity or curiosity that I believe makes those incremental changes. So if you're doing a list for the, for your shopping, for your grocery list, draw a little icon of what it is next to the word. Try just a really small act of fun in doing the list.

[00:43:29] And rather than, you know, boring list, just put a little, like on apples, put a nice apple there, put a banana there, see if you can just have a go at it. And then shape that into your, into your work. If you are having a conversation with a client or your team. When you're taking your notes, try using borders.

[00:43:49] So when you've written something really important, draw a box around it. Try adding some shadow to it. Add a star next to something that's some you need to [00:44:00] action after the event. If you need to email someone, draw a little email icon next to it. And these are like tiny acts of rebellion to your boring everyday tap.

[00:44:12] That's where I started, that's where my brain at school rebelled. It was like, no, I'm not gonna write neat lines of nothingness. I'm going to draw my answers and I'm going to, uh, revise with pictures and color and lean into my brain's capacity rather than conform to what's expected, lean into what's, what's innately wanting to come out of me and express it.

[00:44:39] Sarah: That's just brilliant and. It's those sort of turning it into little moments of joy as well. I love about that. Like it's just that you make your shopping list more interesting, but I particularly like how you're starting small with that. So we don't all have to be able to create a huge kind of poster on the wall like you can.

[00:44:57] Um, but starting small and using little [00:45:00] icons and you know what, actually we are all using little icons all the time because we're all using emojis exactly. In how we communicate digitally. And one of the things I try to do with emojis is not just use the smiley face one all the time, but like find a funnier one or a more interesting one or one that like I've never used before.

[00:45:18] Yeah. A little animal that might express the thing that I'm trying to say so that it, because it's more fun and I use those as a sort of, you know, the emoji response to a message that you get in WhatsApp. Yeah. Try and find something that is funny, not just the, you know, the heart or thumbs up because it's more fun and you are right.

[00:45:34] It's those moments of joy. But also what I like about the starting small thing, it completely fits a lot, uh, that we are talking about at the moment around Tiny Habits. And I've just recorded an episode with Owen as well, where he's talking about, he's been thinking a lot about Tiny Habits and how there's a book by BJ Fog called Tiny Habits and how when we want a slight, a change of behavior in ourselves, that the best [00:46:00] way to do it is by starting small.

[00:46:02] And we've been exploring whether there are some ways that we can kind of take that thinking and use it for changing behaviors at appropriate times where organizations are looking for change. So yeah, I I love that. And I think that's a really nice way in and kind of connects to the next question I've got for you.

[00:46:22] So, um, we touched on this earlier, but this year for Speak to The Human, we have a theme around risk and permission to fail. I wonder if you've got any good stories about. Mistakes you've made or risks that you've taken in your work?

[00:46:38] Hannah: Permission to fail is so funny. I feel like permission to launch, permission to fail are like two dangerously close buttons.

[00:46:45] Yes. Things, yes. Like that's how I see it in my head. And permission to fail is I've emotionally changed. I've emotionally pivoted around that word in the last few years. [00:47:00] When I was mid tw young, mid twenties, I would happily fail, but I'd disassociate from the feeling, and by that I mean something wouldn't go my way.

[00:47:15] And rather than reflect and learn, I'd ignore and forget. And whilst that meant I could keep going, it meant that I didn't actually learn anything. I was consistently trying and trying and trying a little bit like, like a shotgun. Splatter gun approach where I'd try and I'd fail. And yes, that actually served me really well because it meant that with my 20 something ego, I could, I just had the resources and the energy to keep going and keep pushing.

[00:47:51] But actually in the last two years, I'd say that started to shift and I dunno whether, because I believe in when you're sort of [00:48:00] 25, your frontal cortex finally grows in fully, and you, you sort of become a full adult.

[00:48:07] Sarah: I'm still waiting for that to happen, and I won't tell you how old I am.

[00:48:10] Hannah: I think that's just what happened to me because my, my learning to fail every time I did felt more like an experience I embodied.

[00:48:22] I felt it. And whilst that slowed me down. I actually learned, I felt. And so when I was disappointed, I felt disappointed, and it was a real act of trust that I could come back from it. And what I try and remember now is in those moments of frustration, um, and anger and disappointment, that that doesn't last forever.

[00:48:48] So feel it, feel it as a human, and then come back from it and change and adapt. And it's been such, such an experience that I, [00:49:00] I haven't fully reflected, I haven't come out the other end of it. I'm still in that, I'm still in the process. But what I feel is this shift where I'm, I'm slowing down, but not, not for negative reasons.

[00:49:14] I'm slowing down so that I can really, IM, emerge myself, immerse myself, even in the experience of something that's not comfortable. Which means I've grown this resilience and it feels so much more authentic now. Before it was very, I say that, you know, you can either choose sort of petrol or GA petrol or diesel.

[00:49:37] I was running condom validation for years validation. I was 20 something running a company that was going around the world and I was proving, I was literally putting two fingers up to all my teachers saying, oh, you thought artists couldn't make money? Well, watch me look what I'm doing and that that gas doesn't keep you [00:50:00] going.

[00:50:00] That's a really short burn fuel where it can last you a couple of years, but it won't get you to a real authentic place. It will

[00:50:11] Sarah: get you

[00:50:12] Hannah: somewhere where you are commended and you're validated, but inside you're probably burnt out because you've not actually been following something that's authentic to you.

[00:50:22] You've. In a weird way, even though you think you're doing the, the niche and the different, you're still in the route race sitting following that path because you're still trying to find the validation of being promoted or getting a high salary. So that's been a really interesting process of failure for me in the, in the terms of live scribing.

[00:50:46] One of the scariest situations, and not in a dangerous way, this is just purely from an artistic point of view, is the pens I use are paint pens that you have to press the nib in for the [00:51:00] paint to be released. Mm-hmm. And on one occasion, I pressed the pen in and it flooded the page with blacking, which was mortifying.

[00:51:12] Especially when you've got 500 people watching you. Yeah. Do you know, and now I, I've always had this. I don't know where it comes from. It's definitely a silly side with me. It comes from my mom. She's the best person in the world, or I just laugh. It'll happen. I'm like,

[00:51:29] Sarah: that's amazing. I love that

[00:51:31] Hannah: you could genuinely cry and you hope the world swallows you up in a hole.

[00:51:36] But I just laughed. I thought this is hilarious. And like any tiny mistake, whether it's that which was monstrous, blacking kind of white page, or if it's the wrong line I've drawn, which is the wrong perspective on something, you have a little chuckle and you lean into it and think, actually this is a [00:52:00] really exciting opportunity for it to change the direction of this board.

[00:52:04] So what I did instead, this event was a launch event for a 2-year-old company that was international, bringing everyone together so they could be on the same page. So I thought, let's draw a massive out of space rocket. Let's draw space, put the information on the planets. The stars are connecting all the different locations.

[00:52:24] Oh wow. Rocket is, you know, they're all heading in the same direction. They're heading for the moon. They're gonna land on it. So in the corner, I had an astronaut on the moon with a flag with their logo in it. That's so cool. I wouldn't have done that if the ink splatter hadn't have happened. And at the end, the one thing everyone picked up on all of the photos at the end of that event was the little astronaut on the moon with the rocket heading to it.

[00:52:49] Sarah: Oh, that is just brilliant. That is just really, I think, you know, a Hannah, I feel like you and I discovered this about each other two years ago, that we both kind of. [00:53:00] We are fairly unruffled by things not working quite the way that you expect. And, and actually I'm, I'm the same as you. I sort of, I think there is no point in me getting worked up or stressed or frustrated or angry about something that hasn't worked the way that I wanted it to.

[00:53:17] It is what it is. Mm-hmm. What do I do about it? Is there a way that this is actually better? Yes. Even, or is there a way that it is a way to connect with people because it's funny. Oh, you turn it into an opportunity for like, just saying, do you know what, this has gone a bit wrong. And it's very, it may be humbling, but it's very authentic.

[00:53:41] It's very, it's normal. It was, it's what happens to us all. Yes. So, yeah, two years ago at the, uh, the speak of the human event, we, your bored. Well, I think it did arrive at the venue did, were missing you had a a, a big, like two meter board that we discussed quite carefully of like really thinking through how did, how did we want to capture your [00:54:00] illustration that day?

[00:54:00] What was it going, what, what sort of, um, form was it gonna take? And you ordered this big board to arrive at the venue. Yeah, it did arrive somewhere, but nobody at the venue. And I have to say, no disrespect to, to this venue because I love this venue. It's very rare for something to go wrong. But somehow the board went missing.

[00:54:20] Hannah: I think it was the delivery issue rather than the Probably, yeah, because it was a big campus that, but it was a two meter board. Who knows? It wasn't meant to ring you. That's the point, isn't it? What? That board wasn't meant to find us on that day.

[00:54:33] Sarah: No, it wasn't. But I just loved, we discovered in each other, this kind of, neither of us were really flat, like we were both sort of unruffled by it and we just went, right.

[00:54:42] Well, let's find a big piece of paper and stick it on the wall. It'd be fine. I wasn't upset. About it at all. And you were like, yeah. And in fact we ended up with something that worked better for both of us did. Because you found it, I think, easier to use something that was [00:55:00] like directly on the wall. You had more space to use for me.

[00:55:03] We could roll it up. At the end of the day. It was actually easier to to take home.

[00:55:06] Hannah: But that informed our practice for the next year, didn't it? Yes,

[00:55:10] Sarah: it did. We did exactly the same thing. 'cause it was better. Yeah. And actually it was a really nice way to connect with the room too, because our theme that year was navigating change and harnessing disruption.

[00:55:21] So the disruption being what might. Disruption look like when it's a positive thing often. Yes. So doing things differently, shaking things up a bit. And this was a good example of that. And you spoke to the room beautifully about Oh yeah, we are, this is live disruption in the app. It

[00:55:39] Hannah: was so on brand, that's how, yes, it was meant to happen that way because yeah, totally.

[00:55:46] I love the, so one of my favorite things in events where I know the team and they trust me is being able to speak to the room because yes, they sometimes people don't fully [00:56:00] understand or they arrived me or they didn't quite necessarily because they had to do their emails or something like that.

[00:56:04] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:56:05] Hannah: And in the breaks, isn't it, when we come back from the breaks, I'll have five minutes on the microphone and I sort of re relayed back how I've interpreted what's going on given the update on the board. And it's such. A different way for an illustrator who illustrators are terribly introverted, morally. I like to say I'm an extroverted introvert.

[00:56:27] Don't really know that means, but I, I love storytelling of any medium. I really am. I'm in awe of people who can talk so eloquently about how they feel, what's going on, especially when it's working or not working. So that for me is like an opportunity, it's like a golden nugget that I get to just stretch a slightly different creative muscle and talk.

[00:56:52] Yes.

[00:56:53] Sarah: Yes. And then just

[00:56:54] Hannah: drawing, I say just draw rather than drawing the event.

[00:56:57] Sarah: Yes.

[00:56:58] Hannah: And stretching that communication [00:57:00] muscle. It's, you know, and Owen is so fantastic at it. Yeah. Everyone in acting, and they're just beautiful at talking simply and calmly and eloquently about what. What they do and why they care.

[00:57:14] Sarah: And, uh, I mean, you have been so eloquent in this podcast. You've expressed all your thinking and your ideas just so beautifully. And I hope people have enjoyed listening to it because it's a different take on things often, but so many valuable ideas and I really, really appreciate the time and, um, just hearing from you, it's wonderful and I always love talking to you, Hannah.

[00:57:37] Anyway, we, Jesus. Um, so I'm gonna end with a question that I ask all of the podcast guests, which is speaking to you as a human. Hannah, what's exciting you at the moment and what are you looking forward to? What's motivating you, either in or out of work?

[00:57:53] Hannah: Big question. What is motivating me at the minute? I, [00:58:00] I'm very influenced by my environment as a visual person.

[00:58:05] What's in my immediate surrounding really influences where my mindset is at, what I'm inspired by, what I think about. And as we touched on, I've grew up in disruption, moved to London, and that shaped me. But I'm growing in Singapore and I feel very connected. It's very juy here, very green, but it's a city and it's alive and it's noisy in certain places, but it's clean.

[00:58:34] It's this really different space for me that I've never experienced. So the environment of Singapore, obviously the different cultures here, it's incredibly diverse. The different languages, the food, the smells, it's, it's giving me these different perspectives. And as humans, different perspectives means different inspiration, especially as a [00:59:00] creative person, which I practice every day.

[00:59:03] Not just something you're born with, but creativity is growing here. And what I'm focusing on this year is the ability to balance. So my love with the business for Scribble Inc. Growing internationally, but also my priority of internal exploration. How can I bring my ideas to life? Because that's something I've noticed in London.

[00:59:31] I'm very go, go, go. Very excited about fitting the diary, getting to meet lots of people. It's a different pace of life here with the heat. It's very, there's a gentleness to it, which I haven't experienced in the city before. And that gentleness and kindness has allowed the softer side of me to come out and my ideas as an artist illustrator, not a business illustrator, but an artist [01:00:00] to be released.

[01:00:01] It takes courage, I think, to bring your own ideas to life and self-manage your project because you're not getting paid for it. You are not getting directed, you're not getting advice. You are almost like the idea, the gener, the artist and the editor all in one, which is really scary, but there's a lot of, it's almost like turning over rocks within your own soul, which sounds a little bit deep.

[01:00:29] A little bit, yeah. Sound like a no Ed there. But it, I love it. It's that opportunity. I've been given this opportunity, I believe, to almost dial down the speed at which I was going from like hair to just halfway to tour toys. Probably take that opportunity to explore and it. Apply my curiosity to things that I've probably pushed down a little too [01:01:00] long.

[01:01:01] Um, so I'm really excited about that. It's taking every day, it is taking mental strength to keep going with that approach. 'cause it's very easy to slip into the scarcity mindset and think if I'm saying no to clients, am I not gonna get paid? Am I, you know, as a business owner, that's a very real mindset.

[01:01:22] But my, my dedication now is to the abundance mindset and know that the artwork and the research and the learning that I'm pouring into the courses I'll be creating this year, the opportunities will find the right people when I apply myself to the right opportunities, fundamentally believe that, that the abundance of opportunities is out there.

[01:01:49] We just need to apply ourselves to the right ones. Say yes to the things that light us up and no to the things that we aren't aligned to, because the nos gets closer to the yeses. [01:02:00]

[01:02:00] Sarah: I love it. That's, oh, it's so inspiring listening to you talking about it, and I think there's something that we can all really reflect on in what you're saying about, you know, uh, taking those moments and taking the time and making space for the things that happen in our lives that sometimes we're just powering through and not really paying enough attention to.

[01:02:22] And I love so much of what you've shared in this podcast today. I think there's ideas for us all about creativity, thinking about things in a slightly different way, putting a lens on things, and you've got a, an incredible skillset that is hugely valuable, but there are things in there that we can all take and learn.

[01:02:43] So. Thank you so much, Hannah. It's been as always, an absolute joy to speak with you. I really, really appreciate your time and I'm absolutely sure and confident that people listening to this will have too. So thank you so much. Thank you, [01:03:00] and bye for now. Bye.