Owen Rose on behaviours and habits

[00:00:00] Sarah: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organizations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me in hearing from our brilliant guests.

[00:00:27] In this episode, I'm keeping the microphone in-house interviewing Owen Rose, who is one of our partners here at ion. We chat about what speak to the human means and why it's so vital to start with thinking about the people we're trying to connect with, what shapes their responses, their motivations, and their behaviors, and why it's best not to assume we humans make rational choices all the time.

[00:00:50] Owen and I talk about how simple habit forming can be used to shift small actions for big impacts across large groups of people. And we touch on the vital role of [00:01:00] communication, creating messages and ways of connecting with audiences meaningfully. I hope you'll enjoy this conversation. Please do like, and subscribe to the podcast.

[00:01:09] And as always, we love to hear your feedback and your ideas for future guests.

[00:01:20] Hi Owen. Welcome to Speak to The Human. I'm really happy to have you on as a podcast guest. Um, even though it's a little odd for us to be kind of looking at each other through a screen rather than sitting together in the office, but, um, we work really closely together at Acton. And, um, I guess one of the things that I really enjoy about working at Acton is that, uh, between colleagues here, we have such interesting conversations all the time.

[00:01:44] So, you know, whether that's brainstorming for a project or just. Spontaneous chats in the kitchen. It is just, we have so many colleagues that are great to chat with. Um, and you and I talk a lot and over time we've collaborated closely on [00:02:00] how we communicate our behavioral approach and much more. And I'm really looking forward to sharing some of that thinking and, um, why and how it makes a difference, um, in the work that we do and the organizations that we work with.

[00:02:13] So, welcome to speak to the Human.

[00:02:15] Owen: Thank you, Sarah. It's, it's great to be here and join the illustrious list of previous participants. Um, it's, it's episode 11, I think, isn't it? I've think I've been waiting for our invitation. Uh, so it's great to be here.

[00:02:28] Sarah: Um, so yeah, just to start with, um, could you share a bit of background about yourself and we do at Acton?

[00:02:35] Owen: Yeah, of course. So, uh, I am, uh, very lucky to be one of the partners, uh, at Acton. So we have four partners who own the business. Um, and as like in common with all the partners, I'm also a practitioner, so we're all very directly involved in the work that Actian does. Um, and I am one of our consultants here, part of a consultant team.

[00:02:59] [00:03:00] Um, getting the chance to work directly with clients, get involved in the really exciting range of, of different work that we do, uh, supporting our clients with their, with their different needs. Um, and so it's, yeah, I really enjoy, I guess that balance of being a. Um, you know, I guess a leader of the business and helping to grow and shape, uh, our, our little business.

[00:03:24] Um, but also to be hands on with work and doing the work of the organization as well. It's a, it's a very enjoyable combination.

[00:03:31] Sarah: Brilliant. And, um, you've been here for a while.

[00:03:35] Owen: That's a, that's a kind way of putting it. Yeah.

[00:03:39] Sarah: How have things changed? Well, I'll leave it for you to say how long that has been and how, how have things changed over that period of time?

[00:03:45] Well, I think

[00:03:46] Owen: I've, I've chalked up a quarter of a century, uh, with Acton seeing the growth. So when I joined, I think I was, uh, the 13th person, uh, on, on the team.

[00:03:56] Sarah: Do we yet have any colleagues that are younger than the amount of time you've [00:04:00] been at Actin? Don't even, must, don't even go there.

[00:04:03] Owen: I'm sure we do.

[00:04:04] Definitely. Yeah. Um, yes. So we have colleagues who were born probably when I joined the, uh, the company. It's, yeah, it's been, I guess, a fascinating journey really. Um, I mean if, and thinking of the, I guess the, the time and the changes that, that's encompassed. So I, I can proudly say I was involved in the first project using the internet, um, that we did at Acton first, using that as a means of communication and of information sharing.

[00:04:31] Um, and obviously seen a whole host of changes really, I guess, in working patterns in technology over that time. I mean, fundamentally, uh, I think we would say that our sort of core purpose and what we're trying to do hasn't changed really at all. We're trying to help people do the things that, uh, make them and their organizations more successful.

[00:04:53] And that's always been really the, the purpose of, of the organization. But obviously the ways that we do that and the [00:05:00] ways that people are working have, have changed a lot. I think I was thinking about this a bit before, and I think a couple of maybe the. Big changes in, in our work that reflect wider changes in society and, and work over that time.

[00:05:14] A couple of them would be, I think one of them is certainly to say that in a way the, the breaking down of compartments and the kind of integration of different activities and services, I guess in that way, you think of, with modern technology and with your smartphone, you, you, so much of your life is brought together and, and integrated in one place.

[00:05:33] And we no longer have these kind of boundaries between, well I'm, you know, I'm, I'm consuming entertainment now I'm working, now I'm doing learning or training. Mm-hmm. Now I'm meeting people. These things become sort of more compressed and more seamless. We, even these days, particularly the boundaries between home and work are, are, are much more, uh, well diffuse, you know, and, and I think that probably spread the way that we deliver [00:06:00] communication, learning the engagement intervention again.

[00:06:04] Becoming less compartmentalized, and there's a big drive to embed these things in workflow, make them part of a person's normal day. Put the, the prompt or the learning or the communication at the point someone needs to use it and make it as simple and as, as seamless as possible. I think that's been a, a kind of a, a just a, a, an ongoing change through, through the period.

[00:06:25] The other thing I think that's, again, reflecting perhaps the growth of the internet and social media is, is personalization. You know, is the ability to consume things, access things the way you want to, when you need to, to suit the needs that you have. These are, these are big changes like I, I, I think, you know, again, a lot of the ways that we are working and responding to what our clients, uh, need us to do, um, reflects that increasing nature of, of, of sort of personalization, of the way that people consume information, the way they use information, uh, and so on.

[00:06:59] Sarah: There are some [00:07:00] really interesting points in there, I think. Um. Because obviously alongside the technology, um, that's changed so much in our lives over the last 25 years. There's that social and cultural element as well about expectations. And I think what Gen Z expects when they enter the workplace is so radically different from what people expected 30 or 40 years ago when they entered a career.

[00:07:23] And I don't know if it was at that point training meant something different because people, there was a different sort of set of expectations and a different sort of contract between, I don't mean literally, I mean in terms of sort of, um, an understanding between employer and employee about, uh, you have to do when you come to work.

[00:07:43] Uh, I think there's sort of a different set of expectations now, and it's interesting in how that plays out in the work that we do, that we have to probably work quite hard to engage people and, you know, get messages through where, I don't [00:08:00] know, in the past. At that time ago, three or four decades ago, might they have been more willingly receptive of messages that come from on high than it's, that's a really good

[00:08:11] Owen: point.

[00:08:11] I think it's probably both challenge and opportunity, isn't it? I think, I think everyone would, um, would appreciate the, the noisiness of, of work these days. The sheer amount of, of information that you are dealing with. Um, and so perhaps cutting through that, getting traction within that just gets harder and harder.

[00:08:30] I suppose the, the counterpoint to that is that maybe there are more touch points, there are more ways of, of reaching people. Um, I mean, I remember, you know, back in the day when I started doing sort of thing, the idea of the, the training day, especially the offsite training day, was still a very big thing and I think was considered a kind of social perk, really.

[00:08:49] People, you know, uh, we, we knew that they were always very popular. I don't think they were popular, particularly for the quality of the training. And they were popular for the chance to go away with some of your friends and. You know, get lunch [00:09:00] somewhere, somewhere out and, and, and generally have a good chat.

[00:09:03] Um, so yeah, it's, I mean, it's a really interesting point, isn't it? So I think, and I, I do remember, uh, actually a, a, a client, well, a, a, a contact at a client. Uh, we were talking to them about how training was perceived within the organization, and this was a, a client who was doing a lot of these kind of face-to-face formal training, uh, interventions.

[00:09:23] And, um, this person describing the sort of approach to training within the organization as being, oh, yeah, training is something we do in the, in the classroom. And then work is what we do in the workplace. And there isn't really a relationship between them, you know, and, and what's, what's, what happens in the classroom, stays in the classroom.

[00:09:41] You know, we, we, we just do what our boss always asks us to do when we're, when we're back in the workplace. So,

[00:09:46] Sarah: yeah,

[00:09:47] Owen: I think there's. There's definitely opportunity. And I think moving away from that idea is, you know, learning or training is somewhat differentiated from work. Um, is a really positive thing actually.

[00:09:59] [00:10:00] And you know, that we, the more we can integrate this as part of the experience, um, and recognizing that, you know, most learning comes through practice doing the work, actually we can most effectively support earning and development, build engagement by actually supporting that experience rather than by creating a separate experience.

[00:10:22] Sarah: Yeah. I mean, this relates to our phrase, speak to the Human, which, um, obviously is the title of our podcast. It's also, uh, the title that we give to our event, um, annual event that we hold in June. Um, I think the phrase probably came from you originally

[00:10:38] Owen: did it. Oh, well, I'd like to claim it. I'll say, I'll officially take credit for it on the podcast.

[00:10:44] Yeah. Just don't tell my colleagues. Yeah.

[00:10:47] Sarah: What does it, what does it mean to you as a phrase? Well,

[00:10:52] Owen: yeah, I mean, I think, I, I don't, I would, I dunno if it's a, a penny drop moment, but I certainly, so obviously as I said, [00:11:00] you know, for the work we do, actian and the work I've been doing for 25 years is about helping people do things.

[00:11:06] You know, helping people do things that are, that are positive for them, positive for their organizations, and knowing often through, uh, you know, how hard that is to do actually how hard it is to, to influence behavior. And you, you can create this wonderful learning intervention that you think is, you know, follows all the good principles.

[00:11:26] It looks magnificent. Um, and it doesn't seem to make any change. And we, you know, that obviously as practitioners. We know that's often the case. Um, and we know how hard it is to, to change behavior even when those changes in behavior are massively in the interest of the people that you are trying to influence.

[00:11:45] And I, I read, uh, I remember it was reading, um, or rereading, nudge, the, the very well known, um, behavioral science book by Richard Ler and Cass Sunstein, [00:12:00] and I think I'd read it in the past and, and sort of, you know, thought, oh yeah, that's very relevant to what we do, but then rereading it and really thinking about it.

[00:12:06] And they talk about, I think a big point, uh, that they're trying to make and, and really is the basis of kind of nudge theory is they, they were talking particularly in terms of economics and people making financial decisions, like in their worlds of banking or managing personal finance. And they talked about this tendency of economists to.

[00:12:23] Always treat people as what, what they, we'd call homo economicus, you know, or, or they shortened it to econs. It's basically that humans, essentially the assumption that humans are essentially rational decision making machines. Um, so if you give them the, all the right information, they will make good choices, which are in their own interests.

[00:12:41] And I think, you know, the whole science of behavioral economics is, is basically saying the obvious that we all know that actually that's not really the case. You know, we are not econs, we are humans. You know, we're wonderful, changeable, unpredictable, [00:13:00] forgetful, um, you know, human beings. And we, we don't necessarily always, um, make the right choice or the choice that they're good for us because we are, we're complex and we're, we have all the biases and habits and we're under pressure.

[00:13:15] Um, you know, we're under confident or maybe we're overconfident, but all of these fantastic. Human reasons, um, why we don't necessarily do the things. And I think it was just, I, you know, I say it's hardly rocket science, but just thinking about that and then thinking of the context of our work with on thinking, yeah.

[00:13:33] Are we really speaking to the human enough in the, and things, are we really recognizing these humans in their environment with all the challenges they have, all those lovely, wonderful human traits. Um, and can we create more effective inter interventions by speaking to making sure we are speaking to that human side?

[00:13:54] There's a, as a quote, I mean, I said I love the quote from Amos Ky, who was one of the kind of [00:14:00] founders of behavioral economics who, who. Was quoted as saying, you know, I'm much less interested in artificial intelligence than I am in human stupidity. And I, I mean, I dunno if he'd still stand by that quote given, given the preponderance of artificial intelligence in the, in the world world.

[00:14:15] But I think it captures precisely that, well, I'm human stupidity. Yes. Yeah. Well, both, both have accelerated rapidly. But, um, but I think it really captures that idea that, that there's, you know, to be human is, is amazing, is to be, uh, you know, but is, is to, uh, as well and, and to be subject to all these complex biases.

[00:14:34] And I think there can be a tendency to, in, in communication, in learning, in engagement, and all these sort of things that organizations have to do to feel well, if we just tell people clearly enough when something that, you know, reads well and looks nice, they'll obviously then act on it. And. Experience says that isn't usually the case.

[00:14:53] Sarah: It's um, it's a kind of fascinating area to lean into the mess, isn't it? Like the, [00:15:00] it's simultaneously understanding that we're dealing with complexity, but also trying to find simple ways of navigating through it and making things easier to do. So it's that sort of, that friction and balance and, well, the nuance I think obviously there's a whole sort of research world and there's a whole industry around behavioral science and uh, sometimes that's had a bit of a bad name in the last few years, and particularly through Covid.

[00:15:27] Absolutely Covid. I think that the government, uh, sometimes was seen as being a little bit manipulative and there was some bad press around behavioral science unfortunately, because it's a really interesting area and it doesn't mean that all behavioral science is excellent, but it opens up some questions that I think are a very interesting way.

[00:15:46] Helping us to navigate stuff. So yeah. Yeah. Maybe you could talk a little bit about how we take some of the interesting thinking and kind of apply it to the challenges that we're trying to deal with.

[00:15:59] Owen: [00:16:00] Yeah. I mean, I think that's really interesting your point about the, you know, the perception of behavioral science, and you're absolutely right.

[00:16:05] And I think, um, certainly experiences during the pandemic highlighted that. I think it was, you know, even really from the, from the, the, the first emergence of nudge as an idea, you know, a lot of people skip survey. This is kind of manipulation really, of people. And, and I, I think of course it can be, I mean there's, you know, that it, it really depends on the, uh, intent and approach of the people who are developing the nudges, isn't it?

[00:16:35] And I, and I think doing that. Thoughtfully, uh, and with the right motives is, you know, it's okay. So I think if you think about things like classic nudges, we're all familiar with like the speed limit signs that we all see on the roads and the, the smiley faces and the angry faces that these are all nudges, you know, they're prompts put into the environment to help you use a particular behavior [00:17:00] at the, at the appropriate type.

[00:17:02] And I, I think most ordinary people would probably say, you know, I don't think this is appalling manipulation, um, or not trusting me to do the right thing. It's just sensible, prompt to behaviors that actually most people would say are helpful and sensible. You know, we could just completely do away with nudges like that and rely on people to just remember that they have to drive at 30 miles an hour in a built up area or all the rest of it.

[00:17:27] But I don't think many people would think that's, that's a better way to do it. Um, so I think there's that. And then I think the other, you know, situation in which I, or often, you know, the situation where we might be using behavioral science approaches or, or nudges in a workplace situation is sometimes in the workplace there are things that people just need to do.

[00:17:46] You know, that, that maybe it's to do with compliance or litigation or, you know, um, process and procedure. The workplace is a slightly different, well, I, I don't, you know, it's not a, it shouldn't come as a shock to anyone that in, within your workplace. There [00:18:00] are expected ways of doing things and you know, usually the work we are, we are doing is just trying to, um, nudge or help people to, to use those processes, those procedures, to take those actions, which are, uh, you know, it has been agreed are generally for the benefit of the people within the organization and, and for the organization.

[00:18:20] So, um, I think you're right to, to flag the, you know, the potential, uh, challenges here. But, um, it's, it's a, a powerful and helpful way. And generally I think, you know, the intention is to use these things to help people make choices which are positive for them.

[00:18:35] Sarah: And you've been talking quite a lot recently about habits and exploring this idea of, um, healthy habits broadly.

[00:18:41] Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's an interesting way of taking all the stuff that you've been talking about and trying to make these things. Um, as you've said, easy for people embedded in behaviors and just integrated into our ways of working rather than that sort of like you were saying, that sort of old fashioned [00:19:00] training day.

[00:19:00] Yeah. Here's all the stuff we're gonna inject into your brain, and then you go away and somehow you've learned to behave differently. Yes. It's about kind of integrating different things that we all need to do and trying to make those easy, but yeah. Tell us a bit about where the thinking about habits has come from and how, how you are kind of applying it in work.

[00:19:18] Yes,

[00:19:19] Owen: so I suppose the focus on habits really came from of we are often involved with our clients in helping in situations where. The challenge is that you, you need a large number of people to do things a little bit differently to get the impact that you want, say. So classic examples of this would be, say in areas like, um, conduct and compliance.

[00:19:45] So, you know, to keep the organization safe and healthy and to look after colleagues, um, and to avoid reputational damage or direct risk to the organization in you need, you know, in many cases, if we're [00:20:00] not talking about, you know, a highly regulated or, or particularly hazardous environments like say working on oil rig or, or whatever we're talking about, you know, typical workplaces, maybe in, you know, office, workplaces, hospitality, that sort of thing.

[00:20:13] That often relies on most people just being sensible, being, you know, thinking about the things they're doing and saying, you know, it it, am I doing this the right way? Could this harm anybody else? Could it harm me? Uh, I'm handling data. Can I be confident about the, you know, the way that I'm doing that? Am I sure about where this email has come from?

[00:20:34] Really quite simple everyday things, but you need, what you're trying to do is to get everybody within the organization to do these things most of the time. And, you know, it's that challenge of scale often, um, that is, is really difficult to get through. So you obviously in a way that organizations, if we, if we stay in the compliance area, organizations have thought about doing this, is providing lengthy compliance training in all [00:21:00] sorts of these core areas.

[00:21:01] It might be in sort of data protection, data handling, it might be in health and safety. Um, going to all of the details is as though you were trying to, um. You know, help people become experts in data protection or experts. Experts in health and safety. Yeah, kind of. And, and really, I guess that in order to achieve the outcomes that you want, you don't really need to do that.

[00:21:23] That's not what you need. What you need people to do is just, if they see a, a trip hazard in the environment that they think, oh, that could be a hazard. I'll tidy that up, or I'll ask someone to help with it if it's not something I can do myself. Really, really simple interactions and so thinking about, well, how, how do you help people adopt these simple things?

[00:21:46] How can you try to encourage lots of people to do these things? And ideally what you'd like to do is make them habits that people just did these things by habit. So, you know, if I, if I receive an email from someone that I, I don't know, [00:22:00] I'm not sure where it's come from and it's got a link in it. My habit is just to think, oh, hold on a second.

[00:22:04] You know, I'll ask someone or, and so on. I'm, I'm thinking about the organization, I'm thinking about potential risk, and I'll, I'll, I'll just stop for a moment and think, what should I do in this situation? And so that led to thinking about, well, how, how do you help people build habits? And it, and it turns out actually that there, it's quite well understood.

[00:22:21] So from behavioral science, again, um, you know, listeners might be familiar, um, with books like, um, tiny Habits by BJ Fog, who's a American psychologist who has, you know, looked into this and has basically demonstrated that there are really powerful ways of helping yourself to build simple habits. And people often think about this in terms of, you know.

[00:22:45] Our personal lives like health and wellbeing. Um, you know, I, maybe I need to, it'd be good if I drank a bit more water or eat more fruit and vegetables and those sorts of things. But, but it turns out that exactly the same principles that can help you build habits like that [00:23:00] can help build habits in the workplace too.

[00:23:03] It's about finding those actions, which are easy to do, which you are sufficiently motivated to do, and then putting a prompt in place to help you actually do it.

[00:23:15] Sarah: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:15] Owen: And,

[00:23:16] Sarah: and starting tiny.

[00:23:17] Owen: Starting tiny usually. Yeah. So that the, you know, you re they really need to be small, simple actions that we can all do.

[00:23:24] So, yeah, that's exactly right. So for, I mean, I suppose a classic example, I think something, you know, a lot of people will be familiar with, um, would be a program like, um, couch to 5K. It's really building in a lot of the principles, I guess, of, of, of habit building, you know, so starting super small, I haven't actually done a couch to 5K myself, but I gather, you know, you, you literally start by walking and then you run a tiny bit and you, you repeat a lot and you get lots of encouragement when you, when you manage to do it.

[00:23:54] So it's really, really, really simple, simple steps. Um, and [00:24:00] it's, it's, or the, another classic example I guess again, that's, that's very well known would be, you know, just one thing. Michael Mosley's program that gained a lot of traction where, uh, obviously he did, he did lots of just one things. But I think the point is that the message of that was that, um, in your case, for you individually, just think about one thing that you would like to do to improve your.

[00:24:23] Health or, you know, as other aspects of your life. And if you focus on just one thing and you keep it very, very simple and easy to repeat, then you have much more chance of success in terms of embedding that behavior. And that's, I guess that, so perhaps to, to give a bit of an example, it helps to, to illustrate this is, you know, we have worked very successfully with a number of different organizations to, in that area of compliance, you know, how can you make your organization a bit more safe and a bit more secure?

[00:24:55] How can you really get impact there? And um, what we work with them [00:25:00] is to identify really simple behaviors or actions that they would like people to almost develop as a kind of habit to build, as a habit for, for colleagues in the organization. And, um, we work with channel four, uh, on this one. They introduce their code of conduct.

[00:25:18] The, the kind of key message, the key campaign where they introduced their code of conduct was embedding this key action of asking yourself, is it okay? So if you're, if you're gonna, if you're about to make a decision about, you know, spending some company money, or perhaps you've just, you know, receive that email from outside the organization, you're not sure where, and you're wondering, is it, is it okay to reply to this or to click on that link?

[00:25:40] Um, maybe you're about to submit your expenses and you're, you're not quite sure. Just in that moment, ask yourself, is this okay? And if you're not sure that the answer is yes, it is, okay, then do something about it. Ask someone. Yeah, look at the policy, you know, take it out. Whatever it is, just, just stop.

[00:25:58] Take that moment ask, is it [00:26:00] okay? And so the point is, you know, learning off by heart all the rules about expenses, that's really difficult. Maybe even just going and getting outta the code of conduct and looking at the expenses policy, that's quite difficult. I. Just stopping in the moment and saying, is this okay?

[00:26:16] That's easy. That's, that's pretty easy. So that's something we can maybe embed as a habit across the organization. And we did a big campaign around that. Um, linking that, is it? Okay. Question to, to sort of the, the culture and values and the principles of channel four to make it attractive to help increase the motivation and then putting lots of prompts into the environment to encourage people to ask that question, and it turned out to be fantastically successful.

[00:26:40] Um, and, and it really became an embedded habit. Uh, channel four.

[00:26:44] Sarah: Yeah. I think there's two things that are really interesting around it. What one is that? By encouraging that simple question, that habit of asking, is it okay, it actually becomes also a route through to a, a more complex. So you could say, yes it is, no it isn't.

[00:26:59] [00:27:00] Or I'm not sure. Oh, and that route through the not sure opens up a more complex behavior of, well, I'll go and check then. And then people might go and look at the code of conduct or something like that. So it's a kind of opening up of that more complex

[00:27:15] Owen: thing. Precisely. Precisely. And I think the way from a behavioral science point of view, what you'd say is asking that question, the the, or, you know, you ask yourself that question and the answer you get can change your motivation to do other things.

[00:27:26] Yeah. So if you ask that question, is this okay? You know, can I submit this as an expense? And you start to think, well, I could do, but if I'm wrong. You know, maybe it'd be a bit embarrassing. I might get called out, you know, and I, I don't want that to happen. So suddenly my motivation has increased to go and check the policy.

[00:27:42] Yeah. So I'll do, I'll do that more difficult action now, because I took the first action, so That's right. Yeah. It's a kind of gateway, you know, so it, it's not just about kind of dumbing things down to the simplest of actions. It's saying, let's find the most impactful actions that will then lead to other behaviors.

[00:27:58] Sarah: The second thing that I [00:28:00] really like about it is that I think there's an underlying message of trust embedded in encouraging people to ask the question themselves. So, going right back to what we were saying, you know, earlier in the podcast about the difference between, uh, sort of then and now thinking around learning and development or, or what training in ve commas looks like at work.

[00:28:21] It's, it's different from that kind of injection of knowledge into the brain. We are giving you the instruction of how to do it. There's, there's a, that communicates. We don't yet trust you. Really? Yeah. We, we need to tell you how to behave. Whereas this kind of thinking has evolved to a point where it's like, we do wanna trust you and we want to empower you, and actually we wanna give you the space to make the decision.

[00:28:44] So we're encouraging you to ask the question. Um, which feels quite substantially different.

[00:28:50] Owen: It does as well. I think ab absolutely. I think it is empowering you to ask the question and you to, to kind of find the answer, find the right answer. [00:29:00] So you are absolutely empowered to do that. I think the other thing that's really important to say is then as well, so you have a kind of, um, you might say the kind of behavioral approach of, of um, finding that, that simple gateway action, the thing we can make a habit and, you know, you, the way you get impact is by getting most of the people doing that action more of the time.

[00:29:22] So you're not saying it's not perfect, it's not, doesn't be every case in every time, but you will get much more impact. By embedding that simple habit than by providing people with very complex training in, in all of these areas. But the other important, where it links together to get to is, is that the business of speaking to the human.

[00:29:39] So how, how do you cut through the noise, cut through and, and encourage humans to use that habit and to, you know, that's about, that's about, well there, there are many ways of doing that. It depends on the culture of the organization clearly, but often it's about using things like humor, surprise, to cut through the noise.

[00:29:59] It's about [00:30:00] linking it to what motivates people within the organization. Um, so, uh, you know, in organizations where we've done this before, often there's a real pride in the organization and what it does, and so you are linking it to people looking after that really for looking after the organization. And, um, as you know, well, Tara, we've used sometimes quite surprising or humorous interventions like song or puppetry, whatever.

[00:30:24] Mm-hmm. To cut through that noise and to, to build positive associations with a particular habit. Um, and so it is that that combination really of, um, identifying those really positive actions that everybody can take and seeking to build them as habits and then finding ways to speak to the human to encourage people to use them and to better them and to make it okay for, for them to do that.

[00:30:48] Mm-hmm.

[00:30:49] Sarah: And kind of bringing us back to this kind of behavioral science thinking or the behavioral approach, we, different types of campaigns or different interventions are often [00:31:00] focused on, um, behavioral drivers. Uh, do you talk a little bit about that and unpack it a bit and explain what that thinking is?

[00:31:07] Owen: Yeah, so I think when, when I think in that. Transit, well, I say transition, but the evolution of our thinking about how to create impact, how to help people do the things that make them and their organizations more successful. He obviously was, was placing the emphasis on the do the, doing the, the practical really.

[00:31:30] Um, and I think so, so what we're seeking to understand is in order to achieve the impact that the organization wants, whether that's in, you know, maybe it's in compliance, maybe it's in leadership, operations, sales, um, whatever area it is, what are the choices and actions that people have to take to, to make that happen?

[00:31:54] What are, and, and it's, it's really interesting how often it turns out actually that. Quite big outcomes [00:32:00] can be depend on quite a few, quite simple actions and choices. So we, we work with organizations to identify the choices and actions that underpin success for the individuals and for themselves. And then to help them prioritize those as well to think about, you know, what are the ones that really make the difference.

[00:32:18] Um, so I, so perhaps an example of that as well, you know, in a, in a, one of these areas that we work quite a lot would be in areas like, um, equity, diversity, and inclusion. So helping organ, I mean, a, a are quite a hot topic at the moment. Yes. Um, we are hoping that this, um, or we're hoping that organizations don't lose their, their focus on the importance of this.

[00:32:41] Um, and, but, but certainly, you know, it's, it's a big area for a lot of organizations and I mean, I, despite the, all the noise at the moment, what organization doesn't really want to have a more inclusive, I. Environment or doesn't believe that that is ultimately gonna lead to, to greater success. Mm-hmm. It's a big focus for a lot of [00:33:00] organizations.

[00:33:00] And if you think about, okay, well how do we, how do we do that? How do we build inclusion in the workplace or create a more comp inclusive workplace? There's an awful lot that goes into that. So how do you, how do you approach that? How do you tackle that? Well, all you can think about is, you know, what are the moments that really matter for inclusion?

[00:33:19] What, you know, if, if, if people, what are the choices and actions people could take, and key moments that would really make a difference. And in that area, an example of inclusion? I would say that a key moment would be what happens when, as an employee in the organization, I hear someone say, use inappropriate language, or speak to someone inappropriately in that moment.

[00:33:40] What do I do? What choice or action do I use? Can, can I take a positive choice? You know, that might be, it might be to confront it in the moment to, to challenge. Might be, that might be inappropriate. It might be for me to, you know, talk to someone subsequently or support the person who's been on the receiving end of it.

[00:33:58] But can I take a positive action [00:34:00] in that moment? If you got most people, most of the time taking those positive actions, you would be building a more inclusive culture. So that's the idea of identifying, you know, what we call moments that matter. What are those real moments of choice and action that will have a big impact on the outcome that you're trying to achieve?

[00:34:18] And then when you've prioritized those moments that matter, um, is things that, well, how can we, how can we shape them? How can we, how can we help people make good choices in those moments? And that's where we, we look at those and we've, we've learned from behavioral science really, that there are these three key drivers of behavior in the moment for all of us as humans.

[00:34:41] In those moments when we make choices and actions, they're really driven by three key things. So that is motivation. So. Do I understand the value of this? Do I want to do it? Is it is, it is. You know, does this, is this meaningful me? Do I, does it, is it gonna benefit me? Is it gonna benefit somebody else?

[00:34:57] That's motivation. That's key driver. [00:35:00] Second key driver is capability. Can I do it? Do do I have the skills, the ability, the knowledge? Do I understand what it is that I need to do? Can I do it? So that second one capability. And the third one is opportunity. Um, key one often overlooked. Do I have the chance to do it?

[00:35:18] And so a classic example of that would be if this is a behavior that depends on me using a piece of kit, is the kit there and does it work? Because if it isn't, I might have the motivation, I might have the capability, but I won't have the opportunity. Um, I should just say this, but I'm very pleased I re remember to remember all three of the behavioral drivers that we base our work on because we should probably give some context why that is.

[00:35:44] Sarah: Yeah, we should, we should probably do that. Yeah. So last year, speak to the Cuban event. Um, we put a poster on the wall, uh, I think it was about what topics people might like to discuss in this sort of free topic discussion. Right. At the end of the day, uh, having talked probably at some point [00:36:00] about our. Uh, behavioral approach.

[00:36:03] I failed to put a pen up with the poster. So we were kind of looking at this poster all day wondering why nobody had added any comments. And yeah, that was because I, that was right. So that was the, not given them the opportunity to do it. So that was the lack of opportunity.

[00:36:16] Owen: Beautifully illustrated. I'm sure it was deliberate.

[00:36:18] Sarah: Yeah. So Owen tried to take the piss.

[00:36:21] Owen: Uh, so I then took it upon myself to launch, launch into an explanation of the three drivers, and, uh, forgot one of them. So, uh, yeah, it was, it was a long day. It was the end of the day, wasn't it? A very good day. But anyway,

[00:36:34] Sarah: I had to shout. I had this like kind of a, a two second pause while you were trying to remember Capability.

[00:36:38] Yeah, capability before I thought, I'm gonna have to shout this out. So yes.

[00:36:42] Owen: So I, so, um, I'm pleased I've been practicing and I can now remember the three drivers of, of bit. So, so yeah. Just to recap, I guess. So, so in those moments that matter, the what determines the choices and actions people take will be their motivation, their capability, and the opportunity.

[00:36:57] And, and that, that's a helpful lens to look [00:37:00] at. Um, you know, how you can, um, help to help people make good choices. And I think typically it is true, say within a lot of organizations, quite often where something is not happening. Um, there's a, there's a big emphasis on capability. Oh, it's because people, we, we need to train them.

[00:37:20] We need to teach them, we need to, they don't know how to do it. We need to trains. That's the answer. That's the intervention we go for. Um, and in so many areas we find actually capability often is, is not that complex. It's if it's not a specialist process, if it's not a specialist procedure, the capability is often not the issue.

[00:37:38] It's actually more likely to be to do with motivation. So, you know, am I engaged with this? Do I understand the need? Am I, am I paying attention to it? Frankly, I mean, you know, there's a lot of noise and other pressures or opportunity and, and maybe, I mean, a little example of that, if, if we have time is it would be we really Interesting.

[00:37:57] Yeah. Yeah. When we, with a, [00:38:00] a client of ours who, um. Uh, in the, in the retail sector. Um, and the part of their business we were working in involved, uh, part of their business where customers come into, uh, the, the office. Um, and they, you know, it's essentially the, the, the transaction process requires customers to come in.

[00:38:18] They discuss options, the kind of products they'd like. So it's basically a customer service environment where, um, uh, the staff are meeting customers face to face. Of course, during the pandemic, obviously this was challenging, but after initial lockdowns, um, they were able to open up these offices again with appropriate procedures, of course, one of which was hand sanitizing.

[00:38:40] So regularly or absolutely for staff, you know, all regularly hand sanitizing and certainly between each customer visit, and I think it was about six months after they were able to reopen them, there was a concern that the. Hand sanitizing was kind of slipping. It started really well, especially started with all the government [00:39:00] messaging and people were really good at it, really doing it diligently.

[00:39:03] But this was slipping, uh, and they were doing some, uh, mystery shopping and sort of detecting that people were not keeping up their, um, hand sanitizing procedures they might be. And so they wanted to, um, obviously to, to, um, boost these back up again. And we got involved in a workshop to look at ways of doing this.

[00:39:23] And we, I think our client, and possibly we did as well, went into this workshop thinking, well, this is either gonna be about motivational capability. Really, it's, it's either that, you know, capability seems a bit unlikely because it's quite easy to sanitize your hands, but maybe, but it's probably motivation, you know, it's probably people that just, they're not switched onto it enough or they've become a bit complacent.

[00:39:46] They think actually it doesn't make that much difference. Um. And we were quite surprised by the outcome when we, we thought about these key drivers, what it turned out in fact was happening. So during the workshop, one of the, uh, people in the workshop was a stakeholder [00:40:00] who was in one of the customer service, uh, assistants, working ons premises.

[00:40:04] And they said, um, well, the reason that this is happening is 'cause we, we don't have the sanitizer. We don't have the sanitizer in the offices. Um, we also, fortunately had someone in the workshop from logistics who said, well, that's, that's ridiculous. We are, we are sending out industrial quantities of hand sanitizer to all of our branches.

[00:40:22] You that it cannot be the case that you don't have it. But what transpired was that the sanitizer was being sent out in kind of five liter containers, which then needed to be decanted into the little squeezy, uh, top bottles that you actually use to hand sanitize your hands. Obviously over time those little squeezy top bottles had got a bit manky.

[00:40:45] Um, and they'd been chucking them away and they hadn't had any supplies. So they had lots of hand sanitizer kind of in the back office, but they weren't decanting it, putting it out for people to actually use in the workplace. So it turns out that on the face of it, it [00:41:00] wasn't necessarily about motivation, it wasn't about capability, it was just a question of opportunity.

[00:41:05] So people might have been perfectly motivated to do it. They knew what they had to do, but they just didn't have the hand sanitizer in the right place at the right time. So I think that's, you know, one of those examples where taking that lens, that behavioral lens can really help you understand. Why is it that people are not doing the things that we need them to do?

[00:41:25] Yeah. And in that case actually led to an incredibly simple solution.

[00:41:29] Sarah: It's so, it, it's a really good example on two fronts. One is the opportunity as the, as the way you've been talking about it. The, the other is the importance of getting the right people together to problem solve and to understand what's going on.

[00:41:40] And, you know, it speak to the human, it's listen to the human, isn't it? I mean, of course, finding the right people and, um, asking the right questions. Something that probably to one person out of your group is blindingly obvious, or that you've got two separate pieces of information that when you brought them together, everyone's kind of [00:42:00] going, oh, right.

[00:42:01] Yeah. That's a, that's an obvious thing that we need to solve. Um, but you probably wouldn't quite have got there without bringing those people together. I kind of, yeah. Yeah. Well, no,

[00:42:13] Owen: I think you're absolutely right and I think it's about, it is about. Trying to understand, you know, what is happening for those humans in that situation.

[00:42:20] You know, what, what is their experience? Mm-hmm. And maybe we can find really simple ways to help them that don't involve creating a training program or a, a video or something like that. And, um, absolutely.

[00:42:30] Sarah: Because yeah. And in fact, that would've cost a lot of money. Yeah. And a lot of time, um, opportunity costs and probably not made a difference because it wasn't solving the real problem.

[00:42:43] Yeah, yeah. Well,

[00:42:44] Owen: it wouldn't have made a difference if they hadn't solved the opportunity challenge. Yeah, absolutely. So I think it, you know, as it shows the value of perhaps just stepping back from the challenge a little bit and looking at it through that behavioral and human lens, uh, to, to [00:43:00] find the right.

[00:43:01] Uh, the, the best way, the best way to, I mean, I think actually that's, that's a good distinction. I think sounded the right way, is a bit definitive. I think what we'd say is the, you know, you're trying to make sense of what's going on and find the best solution that you can. Um, they won't be perfect solutions and none of these things is a kind of panacea to, to, to solve every problem.

[00:43:20] But you are trying to find, you know, the best with the, the leaders that you have available. What is the best, um, support, help, intervention we can provide to people?

[00:43:29] Sarah: So that example also reminds me of a story that you have used and told a few times because it's got, uh, it, it's similar in some ways, but more historical and, uh, about a, a similar action and behavior and, and habit actually, but also about, um.

[00:43:45] The importance of listening to people and exploring what's happening, which is, um, yes. I think, you know, the example I'm referring to, so I'll let you tell the story.

[00:43:55] Owen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, uh, well, I just think it's a really interesting [00:44:00] example of, uh, we're going back to habits and, and how a simple habit actually, you know, the massive impact of a, of a simple habit in this case.

[00:44:09] So it's, yeah, it's the, um, the context for it's hospital. Inquire acquired infections, um, which I think everyone pre realizes a, you know, a huge challenge, global challenge, um, costs billions every year to, to health organizations, authorities, and governments all over the world. And it, I mean, literally is killing people, um, and quite a lot of people.

[00:44:30] So it's a massive, um, challenge. And, and health authorities, governments spend million, tens of millions of billions really on things like trying to find, um. Uh, new antibiotics to, to tackle those, uh, antibiotic resistant drugs on, you know, redesigning hospital spaces, on deep cleaning, all that sort of thing.

[00:44:52] But we know that the, the most powerful, um, preventative measure against hospital acquired infection is [00:45:00] just an incredibly simple habit, which is washing your hands, uh, routinely. And, and, uh, yeah, I think the, the backstory to that is really quite fascinating. Um, and, and that's what it shared for. So it, it was, you know, the, this was kind of, this intervention was discovered by the, um, I think Hungarian physician.

[00:45:19] And he was working on, uh, in a, in a hospital in Vienna, supervising two maternity wards and the, the death rate, the infant death rate, um, and actually the adult, the adult mortality among the mothers as well. Maternal mortality rates in this hospital were awful, terrible. So much so that mothers would actually just, were frightened to even come in.

[00:45:40] They, you know, they was considered safer just to take your chances, uh, kind of at, at home. And, um, Emel Vice, you know, wanted to understand this, wanted to understand what was going on, and very quickly discovered. He, he was responsible for two wards and one ward had very high mortality rates and the other one had what you might call [00:46:00] normal mortality rates.

[00:46:01] So, um, so what, you know, what was going on, what on earth was going on? And he. Approach this with a rigorous scientific method, um, to try and establish the differences. So that to all sorts of things like the, um, you know, the temperature, could it be the temperature, could it be the amount of light, uh, you know, 'cause they didn't, you know, so they really didn't have an understanding of what was going on and how these diseases were infectious diseases were, were spreading.

[00:46:25] And they, they looked at process and procedure, all sorts of things. And there was apparently no difference between the wards. But a big difference between the wards was that one of them was staffed by, effectively, by, um, midwives. The other was staffed by doctors. And the crucial difference between the two was that the doctors were also involved in performing post-mortem examinations within the hospital.

[00:46:50] And, um, so alweiss hypothesized that in some way, the doctors must be transferring something from the bodies that they were working on. He [00:47:00] called them cadaverous particles. From the bodies that they were working on back to the, uh, mothers and children on the maternity ward. Um, and so he instituted a, uh, a process of, of handwashing in a, in chlorine solution.

[00:47:16] Um, before anyone went into any practitioner, went onto the maternity wards. And of course this had a transformational effect that, so on the ward that had the incredibly high mortality rates, those were actually reduced right back down to the kind of what might be called the, the normal level. And so, you know, obviously they didn't understand at that time, germ theory hadn't been discovered.

[00:47:36] They didn't know what it was, but he correctly identified that it was a particle on the hands of the doctors. So we now know, obviously, it would be bacteria that we're introducing sepsis for the, for the mothers and babies on the wards, and leading to these pulling death rates. Mm-hmm. So, um. Huge breakthrough.

[00:47:52] Fantastic. You know, middle of the 19th century and Handwashing has been, uh, established as a critical protection against [00:48:00] infectious disease. Um, but it's a bit of a sad story because, um, Selma Vice sort of failed to persuade the medical profession that that's actually what's happening because the medical profession just weren't prepared to believe that doctors could be causing this, that they could cause death in this way.

[00:48:17] Um, and so he was kind of ostracized for even suggesting it. He grew more and more kind of irate and became more and more vociferous, um, and more and more, I suppose, oppressed and challenged and ended up, uh, having some sort of breakdown and being admitted to a, uh, an asylum where with, with tragic irony, he was, because he was beaten regularly in the asylum, he actually ended up dying from a, an infected wound.

[00:48:46] Um, and obviously that infection would've been sepsis. So the same one that he had, he had managed to understand how to prevent from his work in the hospital. So, um, yeah, I suppose tragic and interesting. [00:49:00]

[00:49:00] Sarah: Yeah. Although, I mean, ultimately what he discovered led ultimately incredibly positive change. But I think that obviously that's fascinating on several levels in terms of the impact, the ultimate impact of looking at what people are doing, why they're doing it, taking a scientific rigorous approach to thinking things through and having an intervention that you're, you're gonna test and try.

[00:49:30] But I think one of the things that stands out for me of the story is the cultural impact of, uh, it probably, I dunno how much longer it took clearly. Not before his death, before there was change made. I think it was,

[00:49:45] Owen: yeah, the early 20th century before it really, yeah. So probably fif 50 years or something like that.

[00:49:50] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:52] Sarah: I think the, the, the cultural, the attitudes, the responses to, oh, how dare you question doctors, how dare you question [00:50:00] authority. Um, but also just people not wanting to change or accepting that they needed to do something differently and all of the things that go along with that, um, probably at a time as well.

[00:50:14] And an environment where, or the, there isn't a, any sort of normality of questioning things or of, of challenging, um, and authority goes unquestioned. Um. I think that the cultural environment that you exist in is so formative for whether you can achieve change, um, and the success of the types of things that we're talking about and how much you have to tie these types of interventions and the behavioral thinking and the speaking to the human, to the kind of cultural context that they exist in.

[00:50:47] Owen: Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. And, and the need, the need to persuade as well to persuade and to, to, um, it is interesting. Yes. I, I, I mean obviously that was a particularly tragic story and a [00:51:00] particularly resistant, uh, audience that he had in term terms of making change. But I guess it does capture the point that having the right solution and having a great solution in itself is not enough.

[00:51:11] You've gotta, you've gotta take people with you and you've got to, and I think, uh, you know, and, and we know this, um, a lot and I, I think it's something I think I. I hope we try to get into when particularly things like the speak to the Human event we've got is, is, um, yeah, bringing interesting youth thinking and these, these great ideas, but also thinking, but how, how do we help, how do we take people with us on the journey, you know, in, in organizations, um, that are not already doing these things and perhaps perceive them as difficult or challenging, disruptive perhaps in some ways.

[00:51:50] Um, how do we help people see the potential benefits and, and to come along on that journey And, and yeah, so, so you're right. I mean, it's, it's a good point. You know, that we've come [00:52:00] across this a lot where we may be engaged with someone within an organization who's very keen to do things differently, uh, sees new opportunities.

[00:52:10] But, um, you know, the organization has its way of doing things and has its, you know, the things that expects to spend money on and the. The process and procedures and is very reluctant to, to move away from those. So

[00:52:23] Sarah: yeah, I think the, the power of how you communicate the importance of it is immense. Yeah.

[00:52:29] So the, the message and a simple message, the kind of well famous three word message often, or the, um, just the, the impact that you can achieve with a simple cut through message that people understand and relate to and strikes an emotional chord with people, like you were saying earlier about, uh, speaking to the human being about that emotional connection, um, getting the message through so it cuts through to your audience, but also in the [00:53:00] other direction that it, um, not other direction, but in a different direction, that it helps you to make a case to your organization or to the decision makers or to the people that you need to bring along with you as stakeholders.

[00:53:13] Uh, that's sort of, I'm always talking about making the business case and that we always try to support the people that we work with to make the business case. But how compelling you can make that message and that argument and that communication is as important as what you're try how you sort of shape the intervention, I think because if you're not successful with the message that you're trying to craft around it, then people don't take any notice anyway.

[00:53:38] Owen: Yes. I think you, you are absolutely right and I think that's something we work, um, you know, we know we work with our client contacts on is, is, is exactly that, you know, that there needs to be a good business case. I mean obviously there does, doesn't it? I mean, it would be complacent not to do that. Uh, you, it's all very well to say, oh, you know, you can understand from the perspective of an organization saying, oh, [00:54:00] well in fact, rather than all that compliance training that you've done for years and, um, you know, you've invested lots in, um, and allows you to meet audit requirements.

[00:54:09] In fact, what you should do is change to this. Campaign led, uh, approach of, of building simple habits. That's a big shift. That's a big mindset shift. And you do, in making that business case, you do have to speak to those humans who ultimately have to sign off on that, who will have to take, you know, who will be accountable perhaps for the, for the outcomes of it.

[00:54:30] So, yeah, I think it's a, it's a very good point. And something, you know, we're, we are not, I hope, I hope we're not, um, complacent about that. Is, is, and it's, it's a, it's an, I guess an interesting and exciting challenge is to hopefully be in touch with new opportunity to be shaping thinking and ideas, but then translating that into the practical, you know, that how can we make this work?

[00:54:57] How can we, um, [00:55:00] shape this into a solution that an organization can be confident, um, and certainly is. You know, going to be value for money is going to, um, be safe for them. It's not gonna expose them to risk or, um, you know, and ultimately it's going to deliver the, the objective that they're looking for.

[00:55:19] Sarah: We were talking yesterday, and you were reflecting on your background. You've got background in research and academia and, um, how some of the challenges, I suppose, around communication in that, um, context, are there things that you have brought with you, do you think from, that you, that you learned from, from that experience that, that shape your thinking now?

[00:55:39] Owen: Yeah. I, I, I do think so. Actually, uh, you know, when I, when I've, it's so long ago. Uh, I don't often think about it, but, okay. Yes, I think so. I mean, I, I, so I, um, my background was in, um, genetics and evolutionary biology. Uh, I was briefly an, an academic. Um, in research and teaching. And [00:56:00] actually, I mean, it was a very formative experience for me because, um, I had a, a job where I was researching, but also doing quite a lot of teaching, uh, lectures and tutorials and uh, sort of, uh, lab sessions, things like that.

[00:56:13] And what it taught me was that I enjoyed the communication, the teaching, the engagement much more than I enjoyed the research. So actually led to me, to my, to my change of career. Um, but I absolutely don't regret sort of that experience of the research and, and that scientific, I suppose, you know, professional development, I suppose in, in science.

[00:56:34] So I think it was very valuable. I think, um, I think it gives you, well, I think it might be referred to as a sort of healthy skepticism, so it teaches you to question things to, you know, not take things at face value. Um, it's just, it's just an expectation. You know, if, if, if a claim is made, um, you, you think, okay, well, um, what's the supporting evidence?

[00:56:56] Uh, can I, can I cross reference that? You know, what are the sources for [00:57:00] this? And I think that's a, that's a healthy, uh, you know, a healthy skepticism is a good thing to have. It'd be good if there're a bit more of it around at the moment, I think in our, yeah, post-truth, uh, absolutely. Well critical thinking skills, isn't it?

[00:57:13] I think. Yeah. It's just like, not

[00:57:14] Sarah: just taking something in front of you and Absolutely. Yes. Like you say, post-truth environment.

[00:57:19] Owen: Yeah. And I, I think the other, another thing as well is, is, is, um, that's valuable is, you know, there, there might be a tendency to think that scientific research is tremendously kind of, um, I suppose methodical and neat and, you know, you do experiment.

[00:57:32] You get your results, you interpret them and write the paper and. Whilst maybe it certainly wasn't true for me. I don't, but I think more generally, it's almost true that, you know, it's messy really, actually. It's very messy. You know, results are usually messy. There's lots of other stuff going on. People are doing other things.

[00:57:49] Um, there's lots of, there's a, there is a real kind of, um, uh, avalanche of information and, and what you're trying to do is make sense of it, make the best sense of it, you [00:58:00] can, uh, and, and reach the best conclusions. And then of course, another crucial aspect, and I think something often well perhaps is, I dunno whether that this, this sense of science is growing is that, um, that, you know, it's again, often the most eminent scientists or the, um.

[00:58:22] The ones we hear most from are not necessarily doing the most cutting edge or the best Fitch, but they're the people who tell the most compelling stories. Um, and that's a really, and also tell those compelling stories and also attach them to current needs, you know, make them relevant. Again, it, it speaks to that idea that it's, it's good to have a great idea and a powerful solution, but it's not enough.

[00:58:45] Yeah.

[00:58:46] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:58:46] Owen: You need to persuade and you need to take people with you on that journey, um, in order to, to make it effective.

[00:58:52] Sarah: Yeah. I think probably the single common thread that I've had through my whole career has been a, a [00:59:00] brand communication and the importance of it and how often people overlook how crucial it is and, uh.

[00:59:10] But you are, I think you're entirely right. That often really good stuff is overlooked because it's so badly communicated. And that's true in science, it's true in politics. You know, we, we've got world leaders who are in place not because of their competence, but because they are getting their message through more effectively than people who maybe

[00:59:29] Owen: Absolutely.

[00:59:30] And be more complicated. Exactly. They, they,

[00:59:31] Sarah: and

[00:59:32] Owen: that's right. They understand the channels. Yeah. Uh, and they're using them very powerfully. Um,

[00:59:37] Sarah: yeah.

[00:59:38] Owen: Yeah.

[00:59:39] Sarah: So, uh, I, I'm really appreciative of the, of the time that you've given to the podcast. Thank you. It's been, I think we could probably talk for hours, Owen, and uh, it's quite tempting.

[00:59:51] I could ask you like 20 more questions without even thinking about it, but, uh, we need to stop at some point. We can do another podcast soon. [01:00:00] Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, that would be good because, um, we are busy planning our. Event for this year, for June. And I think we're both really excited about the speaker lineup, uh, with the theme around opportunity risk and permission to fail.

[01:00:13] And, uh, it would be really good, maybe, I think, to have another conversation, um, about what that's looking like and what our ideas are for what we wanna pull out during that day. Um, so let's do that. Um, so just to, yeah, I love to do that. Yeah. Cool. Um, so to finish with the, the final questions that I ask everybody on the podcast is, uh, speaking to you as a human, Owen, what's exciting you at the moment and what are you kind of looking forward to or motivated about?

[01:00:40] Either in or out of work or both?

[01:00:43] Owen: Yeah. This, you know, be, because obviously I've listened to the previous 10 episodes. Uh, I know that you always ask this question at the end, uh, and ever. It's the one that I was most frightened of, um, and probably should have thought a bit more about actually. So, uh, what motivates me most?

[01:00:58] That's a, that's a, a good question. [01:01:00] Um, well, something obvious I suppose. Something recent that I'm kind of excited about it. I, I was very lucky, uh, was, was, um, in Malaysia for a couple of weeks, a couple of weeks ago, and that was a very, just one of those very, I hadn't been there before, just very stimulating, exciting, be somewhere so different, um, meet lots different people and, and to a certain extent, you know, different cultures.

[01:01:22] And that was just very, very stimulating. And so I think it's definitely, as these things often do, motivated me to, um, think about other. Possibilities for travel and new places to go. Um, it's also made me very much look forward to the coming of spring and possibly some warmth. That'd be quite nice. And maybe some light actually would be, would be great as well.

[01:01:42] Yeah. Um, so yeah, that's, that's all that quite exciting.

[01:01:45] Sarah: Brilliant. Yes. Yeah, I was really jealous of that clip. Haven't seen the photos yet. Need more of those. Um, that's fantastic. Thank you. It's been really good to talk through some of this stuff and to [01:02:00] sort of hear more of your thinking around it and those stories and, uh, yeah, bringing to life our thinking, um, acte.

[01:02:06] And so thank you so much for your time. Um, I hope everyone's enjoyed listening to this. Um, as always, please do send us any ideas for podcast topics or speakers and, uh, we're always interested to hear those. So thank you. Um, bye for now.

[01:02:23] Owen: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Bye-Bye.