Nadine Anderson on building trust to achieve positive outcomes

[00:00:00] Sarah Abramson: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organisations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me and hearing from our brilliant guests.

[00:00:24] In this episode, I'm joined by Nadine Anderson, who is people, culture and engagement lead. At Westminster City Council in London, Nadine's approach to building engagement goes much deeper than is often found in organisations. She is intentional about getting really meaningful input from people listening properly to their perspectives, and including their opinions on organisational culture and values from their lived experience of work, and then drawing insights from that to develop strategies and to develop culture.

[00:00:56] In this conversation, Nadine shares how she conducted a large listening [00:01:00] exercise at Westminster that made sense of colleague feedback to develop strategic interventions that address real needs both of employees and of the community they serve. She also talks about how she's integrated AI to manage and find common themes across a large data set of feedback.

[00:01:18] Nadine is such an insightful guest and I'm really happy we are able to share some of her valuable experience in this podcast. Please do like, share and subscribe, and as always, I love to hear your feedback. So please do get in touch.

[00:01:36] Hi Nadine, it's brilliant to have you joining me on the podcast today. , I know you've got fantastic insights and stories from the work that you do. With Westminster City Council around people, culture and organisational development. So I'm really looking forward to sharing those with our listeners.

[00:01:52] Welcome to Speak to The Human.

[00:01:55] Nadine Anderson: Thank you so much and thank you for inviting me.

[00:01:57] Sarah Abramson: You are welcome. And it'd be [00:02:00] great if you can sort of start us off by setting the scene for us with, with the work that you do at Westminster City Council and. , Maybe describe the borough a bit and the context and the types of needs that you're supporting.

[00:02:11] Nadine Anderson: Yeah, so Westminster's a borough, we have an incredible diverse mix of communities and neighborhoods, and each area has its own character. And the team supporting those communities work in a very fast paced and varied environment. So Westminster is a fascinating place to work because it holds two extremes At the same time, we're a borough of incredible wealth.

[00:02:33] Global businesses, luxury homes and some of the most iconic areas in the world. Buckingham Palace, for example, big Ben, so on. And yet we also have some of the highest levels of deprivation in the country. So in some neighborhoods you can walk a few streets and see an 18 year difference in life expectancy.

[00:02:51] Wow. Um, yeah, and, and with any council, we have huge. Housing pressures, temporary accommodation, complex [00:03:00] needs, and the challenges of maintaining very old housing stock in the heart of London. My work sits in the middle of that, supporting the people who support our residents, and if we can help our workforce feel connected, valued and equipped, we can improve the experience for our communities that we serve.

[00:03:18] Sarah Abramson: That's brilliant. It's really stark contrast, isn't it? When you say it like, yes. That's amazing. From having Buckingham Palace to. Yeah, that sort of, uh, level of deprivation, I mean, it must be super interesting and challenging and, and everything.

[00:03:33] Nadine Anderson: Most definitely.

[00:03:34] Sarah Abramson: And then you were just picking up there on, on the people that you work with and, and you lead on people and culture.

[00:03:39] , And I think from what you've said in our conversations so far, you, you realise that engaging with staff and really listening to their experiences was gonna be. Absolutely key to unlocking those, kind of, those smart, thoughtful ways to, to make improvements and, and to do that within, you know, you've got limited resources so.

[00:03:58] Can you tell us a little bit [00:04:00] about how you've done that and how you've listened to people and understood what they're, what they're thinking?

[00:04:05] Nadine Anderson: Yeah, so, , when I joined a housing transformation team, so, um, I'm on secondment in, in housing at the moment. So my ante post is that, um, I head up the corporate learning development team, for Westminster.

[00:04:15] , And I was asked to kind of join the housing transformation team and to kind of lead on their culture, program. , So I joined, um, January, 2024, and at that point there was a lot of work. , In kind of shaping, the vision and values with our residents and staff. So a lot of work asking lots, you know, our residents for our residents forums and, , um, the conferences that we have, like lease hold conferences and all those different things that we had.

[00:04:42] Then also we had, our staff conference. , And through that we kind of pull together what we believe to be the, the vision, which is very much about residents being the center of everything that we do. Once they, that was agreed and it was ready to launch, it was great. It looked great on paper, [00:05:00] but we needed to make sure that people really connected with them in their day-to-day work.

[00:05:04] , So began to do listening exercises, and I did it in a, in a fun way in that. We kind of said, okay, we have the four pillars of, of excellence, , which is around residents and the community experience, the people and culture, the systems, , process and digital and the performance and data. But we had the five values, and that was empathy, excellence, openness, accountability and respect.

[00:05:32] And, what I did is I created, , I guess a, a scoreboard. For each of those values. And I asked them individually to score where they felt that, whether they felt that those values were being lived. And it was important to do that because it, it had to be not on what they thought from an organization wide or service or team.

[00:05:54] It was how did that, from their own lived experiences, did they feel. [00:06:00] Those values were being lived and why? And by them individually scoring and then sitting on the tables to then explain their individual scores. They got to learn about each other in that. They got to know how, they saw the word empathy.

[00:06:13] What did empathy mean? They had different people had different views about, some people said, oh yes, I think we're very strong. And others said, no, I think we're strong enough. And why? Why is that? And then it was around respect, and openness. And are we more accountable? If not, why not? So they really had great conversations on those tables, , sharing their own lived experiences, diverse teams across, and then it was an action plan to say, okay, now you've explored that to make it 10 out of 10.

[00:06:43] What needs to change? And then that created the action plan. So they were saying, these are the things that we feel you need to change in the areas of resident, of community, in the areas of systems and processes, in, in performance data, in the people and [00:07:00] culture. This is what we want for you to change in order for us to actually start saying, you know what, we're 10 out of 10 in these areas, and we really believe that we're delivering on our vision.

[00:07:09] So that's kind of how it, how it came about. But it also, for them when they're doing that, they got to start really understanding what we were trying to do. They got to understand the vision, they got to know what the values were. , They walked away knowing that. Because they'd actually started to live it and bring in it, bring it to life, celebrating the things that they, they they were doing, but then also saying, but these are the things we have more to do.

[00:07:32] Sarah Abramson: So interesting. It's so valuable. All those different components to that are so valuable in, in lots of different ways because you are benefiting from properly, deeply listening to what people are saying. And I think people when they feel listened to, that's really powerful. It makes a big difference. But then not only have you been able to kind of.

[00:07:51] Get hold of what they're saying, what they care about as as ways to build it out. But also they're buying it. Like you say, they're kind of getting the [00:08:00] vision and like getting under the skin of it and feeling like they are owning it and shaping it themselves. So that's like, it's amazing. So, okay, so what did you learn from doing that?

[00:08:09] Nadine Anderson: I think the first thing is that people generally want to do a good job. For people who come and work in local authorities because they wanna make a difference. That's why, that's why they come. It's what they get out of bed, , in the morning for, so they wanna do a great job. The frustrations was really about motivation. It was about systems,

[00:08:27] Sarah Abramson: right

[00:08:27] Nadine Anderson: it was about processes. It was about the culture itself getting in the way. Mm. That's what I found. They really cared and they, they really cared about their residents. They knew the things that they really wanted to do better or that they felt would make lives better for their residents, but there were things that were getting in the way for them to be able to, to, to do that. That was their frustrations.

[00:08:50] Sarah Abramson: That's so interesting. And did they themselves sort of come up with. Different ways that it, it might

[00:08:56] Nadine Anderson: most definitely. I mean, like the, the second thing that I, I would say is that the small [00:09:00] things mattered as much as the big things.

[00:09:01] Sarah Abramson: Okay.

[00:09:02] Nadine Anderson: The people talked about communication, recognition, consistency between teams, visibility of leaders, and those things shape how people feel every day.

[00:09:11] Sarah Abramson: Absolutely.

[00:09:12] Nadine Anderson: And then there was also finally was around. People were incredibly generous with ideas. Mm. They weren't complaining, they were offering solutions.

[00:09:21] Sarah Abramson: Love that.

[00:09:22] Nadine Anderson: And once you create that safe space, people want, will wanna help you to fix those issues. Yeah. And that's what I found. It was like, there was just so many suggestions.

[00:09:31] Yeah.

[00:09:31] It was great.

[00:09:32] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. Did it take you a while to create. You talk about safe space to, to create that kind of environment where people were comfortable to share, or was it already there

[00:09:42] Nadine Anderson: had to be created

[00:09:43] Sarah Abramson: mm-hmm.

[00:09:44] Nadine Anderson: I, I think when people were coming into the, the sessions, they're a little bit skeptical.

[00:09:50] Like, Hmm, you say you really wanted this, but you're probably gonna go and do something else. Or, you know, you don't really wanna hear what our problems are because you probably use [00:10:00] it against us further down the line, or something like that. So that's when it sometimes pays to actually have a background in working in frontline services and what the challenges are because.

[00:10:13] When I was actually explaining things and then sharing some examples, they found that quite funny. 'cause they thought, oh, you've been there,

[00:10:20] Sarah Abramson: right

[00:10:21] Nadine Anderson: you, you know what we, yeah. You know what that's about. And so by doing that and bringing my own experiences and, and, um, it, it kind of thought, oh, okay, so you're not just someone who's come from corporate.

[00:10:33] You, you actually get it. You've been there, you, you know what those challenges are. And so then, then they started to kind of really raise some things that wasn't working for them. And rather than almost defend things, so, well actually that's not true. That's their truth. , That's how they see things.

[00:10:52] And it was exploring that more with them. . And really teasing out what was really bothering them and what was getting in the way and [00:11:00] facilitating some conversations. 'cause sometimes somebody would say something, another person would disa disagree. And I'd be like, well, hold on a minute. This person has a point.

[00:11:07] Let's ex let them explain a bit more about what it is. 'cause your, your experiencing your service may be very different to them. And what we're trying to do is create that consistency of how we are going to work moving forward and, and how we are going to kind of lead and, and, and live these values. So. It really got people to start reflecting about, how they saw things.

[00:11:29] It gave us an opportunity to bring in what the real story is and, and what was really going on. 'cause sometimes there's a bit of myth busting going on. So it was a bit about us. Yes. Kind of like collaborating with them about how do we bring this to life? But also there was an opportunity to kind of feed information to them about what we are doing and what, what is in the pipeline and what can be changed. Quite quickly and those quick wins. , That's, that makes such a, such a difference. One of the things that came out was [00:12:00] that some staff didn't feel able to go out and speak to residents and spend time with residents because they were often having to cover the reception desk, because they had no receptionist.

[00:12:10] Sarah Abramson: Okay.

[00:12:11] Nadine Anderson: Well that was straight away. Put reception staff in.

[00:12:13] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:12:14] Nadine Anderson: That freed them up up to focus on the residents.

[00:12:16] Yeah.

[00:12:17] Systems not collaborating with each other. So, okay, let's improve the systems, let's create the processes so it's easy for you to get the information you need to get as and when it's needed.

[00:12:26] Again, taken away that administrative side of things so then they can get out and, and talk to the residents. There's those kinds of quick wins that then, yeah. When people see that that stuff is changing, they come back with more ideas and more ideas and they become more engaged.

[00:12:42] Sarah Abramson: So interesting. It feels like what you're talking about is a whole process of building trust over time.

[00:12:47] Yes.

[00:12:47] And you've done an amazing job of kind of creating that atmosphere where people will have a bit more trust by speaking their language and by showing that you are able to see their perspective. Because you've been on the front line as [00:13:00] well and you can, you can see it. But , I guess even if you hadn't been, just being willing to listen and understand it from their perspective, rather than I am the management I know best, it, it's kind of getting, getting the perspective from their point of view.

[00:13:15] Nadine Anderson: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:15] Sarah Abramson: And then it's interesting what you were saying there about enabling people to speak to each other well, even when their views are different. So that kind of. Stepping away from feeling threatened by a different point of view, and actually that it's really valuable that two people have different perspectives because that gives you a fuller picture.

[00:13:33] So what you can do with that, and it feels like that has then opened the way to those absolute gold nuggets of the specific things that are gonna make a big. Difference is, is that how it all, I mean, did you, how conscious were you of that all happening at the time, and how much kind of unfolded as you went?

[00:13:51] Nadine Anderson: I think it's because I've, I've, I've done this for so long, when I worked in the NHS, , and, and other local authorities. [00:14:00] It. I, I love, I love this messiness of things and, where people just say, you can't help me. This isn't gonna happen. This is not gonna change. You don't know. Been here before.

[00:14:10] And then it changes and they're like, oh

[00:14:13] Sarah Abramson: yeah, and you've given some proof.

[00:14:16] Nadine Anderson: Yeah. You know you are listening. Yeah. You know, things are changing. Yeah. You're not just doing lip service, it's not a tick box. You genuinely care and you generally want to make our lives easier, and so when that happens, then more people come forward and more people are really honest.

[00:14:33] I remember years ago when I was at. Croyden and at the time we were bringing together a number of children's services that were different parts of the, , the borough and bringing it into one building and it was going to be paperless, , hot desking um, just totally different new ways of working. And I remember going into one of the offices [00:15:00] and I was screamed at,

[00:15:02] Sarah Abramson: oh.

[00:15:04] Nadine Anderson: Yeah. 'cause of what you are saying, children will be at risk and it's all gonna be they, they're really going for me. And I remember the managers being quite stunned that no matter how much I was being shouted at, I wasn't getting upset, I was just listening. I was just letting them get it off their chest.

[00:15:26] And then at the end of it, I said, I hear what you're saying, but let me tell you what the givens are. This is happening. There's no negotiation on there. How we do that and how we do it in a way that doesn't put children at risk, that helps you to do your job is down to us and how we make that happen. So let's explore how we can make it happen.

[00:15:46] Tell me what isn't going to work, and we explore what we can do to make it work. And by the time we moved into the building, everybody was happy and loved the building. It was fine. [00:16:00] I think the only reason I was able to deal with that because being previously in frontline services where, , I'm being threatened and people are asking, said they're gonna be outside of a metal bar waiting for me because they were angry 'cause they got, a, a council tax bill or something like that.

[00:16:17] , You learned that yes, they're angry with the organization, they're angry with the system. It's not me. I represent. Council and that's what they're angry with. And therefore when they are that way, I've got to hear, go beyond the anger, beyond the threats and say what is really going on for them? ' cause there could be so much else going on beyond what that particular issue of having a bill is.

[00:16:43] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:16:43] Nadine Anderson: And I need to hear and understand and get beyond that and let them know I'm hearing, I'm listening. Because then that's when they start to really talk about what's going on and what would make things better.

[00:16:54] Sarah Abramson: I massive credit to you for being able to deal with that situation because that's, [00:17:00] that's really hard.

[00:17:00] And the sort of understanding that people are having an emotional response for whatever reason, but being able to kind of calmly step your way through that, understand that you need to allow them to have that reaction, but then bring them with you to say, this is what we've got to do. And these are, these are the non-negotiables, but these are the things that I can work with you on.

[00:17:23] That takes a, that takes a lot. So like, respect, but yeah,

[00:17:29] Nadine Anderson: it, it ta it does. And don't get me wrong, when I go home, I just wanna go into a dark room. Yeah. Just my batteries. Um, but I think when you know what the end game is, yes. That's what drives you. Yeah. When, when you know that your purpose is to, is to try and make a difference, to help and ultimately help the community and the residents, then you think, okay, and when you know that you are dealing with staff who equally care about that, you wanna say, okay, I'm not your enemy.

[00:17:57] I'm not trying to make your life difficult. You [00:18:00] know, how, how can we do this together?

[00:18:02] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:18:02] Nadine Anderson: And that's when our housing champions come into play.

[00:18:04] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. Because I guess what you're seeing really is passion, isn't it? It's it, yes. It might manifest as anger, but like actually, because people really care

[00:18:11] Nadine Anderson: and sometimes it's fear,

[00:18:13] Sarah Abramson: right

[00:18:13] Nadine Anderson: um, sometimes it's because they've gone through changes, which have been absolute disasters, and they're worried it's gonna happen again. You know, I always have conversations with people around, you know, when people have gone through restructures and so on, and then they just think, oh, well the people who are here, they're fine, but they're the ones who are left behind.

[00:18:32] Ah, and they're still sometimes grieving about the people that they've lost on that journey. The people who've been redeployed or whatever. And it's about not only supporting those who move on, but also supporting the people who are there to kind of navigate in a, in a new space and, and, and, to kind of move forward.

[00:18:50] , So, and that's the thing about the people and culture stuff. It could be amalgamation of different things, but, and, and people say, oh, this organization, blah, blah. Actually [00:19:00] it's people

[00:19:00] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:19:01] Nadine Anderson: organisations are made up of people.

[00:19:02] Sarah Abramson: Absolutely.

[00:19:03] Nadine Anderson: , And if you get that right in terms of how you support and develop and, and enable them, it it, that's what creates that kind of like engaged, high performing organization that provides great services to, to our, our community or customers. So it it's always about people.

[00:19:20] Sarah Abramson: Yes, absolutely. Love that. So you've done this huge listening exercise and, um. Got a lot of insights, a lot of information. How did you kind of make sense of all of that and, and bring it to the strategy and, and kind of mm-hmm.

[00:19:36] Figure out what you were gonna do, what you were gonna prioritize.

[00:19:39] Nadine Anderson: Right.

[00:19:40] Sarah Abramson: Big question.

[00:19:42] Nadine Anderson: Yeah. so we had loads and loads of post-it notes, , and, uh, my colleague Jacob, helped me in kind of like putting all. This stuff onto an Excel. And I said, okay, let's put all this post-it notes underneath the four, the four pillars of excellence.

[00:19:58] And we looked at it all and we were like, [00:20:00] oh my God, it's gonna take us days and we need to turn this around and get this into a strategy pronto. 'cause people need to see some quick wins yesterday. And then I thought, oh, co-pilot,

[00:20:12] Sarah Abramson: excellent.

[00:20:12] Nadine Anderson: We've got co-pilot. Let's use co-pilot. And literally just kind of asked co-pilot to look at those four themes, , and all of the, the suggestions underneath it, and bring together what what it thought was the core things that need to take place, the key actions, recommendations that we need to take forward.

[00:20:31] And it did it in such a whiz time. I was like, wow. And then I kind of looked at it and I thought, oh, that's good. But being human, I'm like, Hmm, what is it? And then like, you know, you still kind of go back and have a look and he goes, ah, okay. Actually, that, that was all right. But I think they might have missed that.

[00:20:45] So you still had to make some some tweaks to it.

[00:20:48] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:20:48] Nadine Anderson: But it sped things up a bit. It's brilliant for identifying themes and spotting patterns across hundreds of comments and grouping ideas, , that actually are saying the same thing, but in different [00:21:00] ways. But it doesn't replace judgment.

[00:21:02] Sarah Abramson: Absolutely.

[00:21:03] Nadine Anderson: It kind of amplifies our ability to make sense of so much input quickly. But then we kind of like had to then validate that, and just make kind of look, some don't lose any, the nuances that's in there. Little kind of, Hmm. There's a hidden meaning in this, right. That I need to, unpick.

[00:21:20] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:21:20] Nadine Anderson: And those types of things. But it definitely helped us move from being overwhelmed to this kind of clear what we could act on, the things that we could act on quite quickly. We was able to think, okay, those things are, that's simple stuff. Let's do that now. You know? Okay. They want more regular comms.

[00:21:38] Let's do that now. Okay, let's have an all staff briefing and let's make sure that those things that they said that they want to hear about, that's captured. Let's get some connect and learn sessions up now about the things that they feel they need to know a little bit more about. Let's reach out to people and go look could you do a 60 minute session on, the role of, the residents advocate team. Could you come and do a little talk [00:22:00] about why, why we need to do the things that we, that we do around repairs? I dunno. But we would look at the things that staff say, we dunno about this, we dunno about that. And we're not quite sure how to, when to reach out to adult social care about this.

[00:22:12] And, when we've got concerns around safeguarding that, you know, what happens there? We, we just reach out to our colleagues in different departments and goes, could you come And just. To collaborate with ourself, get the people to understand what their role is and how they can support on the social care side and do a connect and learn on that.

[00:22:29] So those are the kinds of things that we could do quickly. The refurbishments of the buildings, we could, we could say, right, okay, we need to refurbish it. Because when members of staff are saying, when we come to City Hall, we see all of these big screens and fancy stuff, and then we go back to our office, which kind of like has dirty carpets.

[00:22:49] You know, and, and the toilet's not being fixed. You're like, well, how did that happen? Why hasn't that been resolved? And you, it's easily just get that sorted. And it just having a, you know, place [00:23:00] kitted out with the, with the things that they needed and feeling just like that, how they would if they felt they're in city hall.

[00:23:07] Just simple stuff like that, that people could visibly see a difference. Yeah. It does make a difference. Yeah.

[00:23:12] Sarah Abramson: I love how you've combined all of that. Very human messy listening, giving people a chance to say what's in their minds, whatever that is, and then what a fantastic use of AI and technology to make sense of a huge volume of data and find the threads, like distill it, distill it down, summarize that would've taken so long and inevitably, you know, even if it had been a human doing it, you would've missed stuff.

[00:23:39] Or not made a particular connection. And like you say, you still need to kind of apply the, the human judgment to it, but it's, it's, it is a fantastic example of how it can save time and, and provide those insights. What I really like is that the outcome, you've got some things that are specific, you know, very sort of [00:24:00] practical in some ways. I'm sure there were some things that were more difficult, but you've got some things there that are quite actionable that those are so valuable, aren't they? Because if you can do something that way, you can demonstrate to people that you are taking an action that you understand isn't just about changing the carpet and fixing the toilet, it's actually changing the experience of people working in, in that place

[00:24:22] Nadine Anderson: and, and again, having the housing champions.

[00:24:24] It's great because what I did is I , set up a half day session and I literally said, so we distilled all the 700 suggestions. It's come broadly into these themes. Let's explore what that means in reality. And then we had basically a massive wall. And then we literally said, okay, so we are going from February all the way up to the end of the year.

[00:24:49] We can't do it all. What's our priorities? And then you had them saying, okay, that needs to be there. That needs to be there. No, no, the priority's here. No, we need to put this here. And they were, they, they were arguing amongst themselves [00:25:00] about what should be done first. And I just thought, this is great because then they realise that my life is not that easy, that this is this.

[00:25:06] If they couldn't agree and what should be prioritized, then how am I supposed to agree?

[00:25:12] Sarah Abramson: How, how did you help people to agree those priorities?

[00:25:15] Nadine Anderson: So it was like saying, okay, if, if you're a new person coming into the service, what's the most critical things that you need to know about? And they're like, oh, actually, yeah, the induction needs to go.

[00:25:24] That's a priority. We need to get the induction looking really good. It needs to be really clear what's expected of them. Um, and, and so they then started to think of it from that way. You know, if a new person's coming in or when they came in, what would've been absolutely valuable for them to help them on their journey.

[00:25:41] And, and then that's, then it started to map, okay, we need to do this by this time. And okay, we are kind of been exploring it as housing champions and what the values are, but how do we bring that to life? Oh, it'd be really good to do connect on learn sessions around these round values and what that actually [00:26:00] means, and how do you have more empathy? What does empathy mean? And things like that. So he goes, okay, so we need to roll that out.

[00:26:07] Wellbeing was a big deal as well. Staff not feeling, some staff not feeling that their, their wellbeing was, was considered because, you know, they're constantly out there in, the neighborhoods and sometimes they could have aggressive, residents and,

[00:26:21] sometimes residents who have mental health issues and things like that, and they don't necessarily feel equipped to support them. Okay? So how do we promote the training that we have out there around mental health awareness? How do we run a session like do, do like a Wellbeing roadshow where we go out physically to all the offices and do some sessions and remind them about taking care of themselves and what's available to them?

[00:26:41] They were then able to map, well, when does these things need to happen? What should the priorities be? So what was happening then is that when these things were going out, the house's, champions knew that they were involved in this, that they were suggesting this, that they were therefore promoting it and letting people know it was happening, and making sure [00:27:00] that when we came to the road shows and they were going, come on guys, you've gotta come to this.

[00:27:03] We're talking about this, we're talking about that. Because they're part of that journey. And then all of that then, you know, that work that we did on that day helped to provide the people and culture strategy, right? And so the strategy then was taken to, the leadership team to say, this is what we believe to be the people and culture strategy, and here's our six month to one year roadmap.

[00:27:24] And then that's what we were implementing. So they knew the strategy was theirs, the roadmap was theirs. Yeah. And so, and they were therefore a hundred percent behind it and staff believed it because they trusted their champions.

[00:27:36] Sarah Abramson: It's brilliant. You've just brought people with you the whole way and they are gonna have that sense of ownership.

[00:27:41] Yeah. And then it's not something that's being done to them. They feel a bit resentful or fearful of because they built it.

[00:27:47] Nadine Anderson: They built it.

[00:27:48] Sarah Abramson: Yeah,

[00:27:49] Nadine Anderson: exactly. And we had to constantly reminding them, you know, remember this happened when we had the VOY survey. We were like saying, right. The voy survey's coming out and these are all of the things that we've done.

[00:27:59] Since we [00:28:00] had that last conversation with you, all of this. 'cause sometimes they don't link the two the things are happening and they don't realise, well that's happened because of the conversation you had back there.

[00:28:10] Sarah Abramson: Yes.

[00:28:11] Nadine Anderson: It all links.

[00:28:12] Sarah Abramson: Well join those dots and celebrate when things actually make a difference, rather than just like, what's the next thing?

[00:28:18] Actually, there's value isn't there? In sort of pausing and going, this kind of made a difference here. This works. Yeah. Like, and thank you.

[00:28:25] Nadine Anderson: Mm-hmm. Most definitely, most definitely.

[00:28:29] Sarah Abramson: Um, you talked about activation workshops, I think. Yes. How do those fit in? What, what are they and how are they helping?

[00:28:36] Nadine Anderson: Right, so, , back in 2018, we had, the Westminster way, um, and it was three pillars.

[00:28:43] Everyone's a leader, everyone has talent, and everyone is valued. And, um, earlier this year it was thought, well, are they still relevant? How do we know if they're still relevant? Does it need to evolve? So a series of focus groups [00:29:00] took place, across the council to kind of revisit it.

[00:29:04] And, we brought in, an external, um, partner called Dragonfish. To kind of help us explore what that would look like. And I was really, really keen that I could get as many people from housing to be part of these focus groups. So I was like, can you go to their offices because not everybody comes here.

[00:29:26] Um, so they went to different housing offices, made sure that they, they had the time to kind of be involved. We set up online, teams, focus groups, and I literally pulled it in people's diaries because I it as many people to be involved in it as possible. And it's great because now we have our Westminster way

[00:29:49] Kind of promises, principles and purpose. So what is our purpose as an organization? What's our promise? Our, our promise to our customers, as well as our promise [00:30:00] to our people, which is that everyone has talent. And then what is our four principles? Which still has everyone as a leader. Um, and everyone is valued, but it now incorporates everyone is connected and everyone impacts on communities.

[00:30:18] And I know that, that has come from a lot of input from the housing staff. So now we are moving from our, I guess, vision and values to our Westminster Way, because literally our Westminster way reflects our vision and values. It's just a, it's just a no brainer to revolve into that. So the activation workshops is exploring those three Ps of purpose, you know, principles and promise.

[00:30:44] And gets them to bring it to life, um, within those sessions. So we've got a tool called who Wants to Live the Westminster Way, which is basically who wants to be a millionaire? And they literally, it's like a, it looks like how it's,

[00:30:56] Sarah Abramson: can you phone a friend?

[00:30:57] Nadine Anderson: It, it literally is 50 [00:31:00] 50 T It's brilliant. It's, it visually looks like who wants to be a millionaire, but instead the questions are around, around the, the, the principles

[00:31:08] Sarah Abramson: cool,

[00:31:09] Nadine Anderson: and they get fake money.

[00:31:10] Sarah Abramson: Nice.

[00:31:11] Nadine Anderson: That type of thing. But it, it's a fun way of getting again, for them to bring that to life. If we're saying everybody connects and everyone impacts on communities, what exactly does that look like? Yeah. And what actions is everybody going to take away following those workshops? So it's kind of like activating it, and then it's kind of moving towards, then at some point, the embedding, but whatever comes out of those actions or whatever they think needs to change, again, it's an opportunity to make those improvements and changes.

[00:31:41] But this time it's a council wide thing rather than just housing.

[00:31:46] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:31:46] Nadine Anderson: Side of things. So it's really exciting,

[00:31:48] Sarah Abramson: the whole picture. Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's brilliant because. I feel like very often an organization will say, these are our values, and they're kind of for the sake of putting them [00:32:00] on the website and sounding like they've thought about it and putting it into, I don't know, like a shareholder report or whatever, but that it's almost more for show, I think, and I think it's, more unusual to end organisations that meaningfully, , sort of embrace those values properly with their, people, and. And, and you've gone a step further because you've really taken them and used them as the basis for a listening exercise and for involving people, but then also for building your entire strategy from that. So it, it feels like such a great example of doing things in a, a much more thoughtful way where the values are real because you've heard people.

[00:32:40] Is that how it felt while you were going through it?

[00:32:44] Nadine Anderson: Yeah, I, it really did.

[00:32:46] I think for me what was really nice was seeing some of the most cynical people turn around, um, and think, oh, okay. And, and, and I think because [00:33:00] as I said, that every organization, you know, is made up of people. You meet people and it goes, I've met someone like this before and I know exactly what's gonna happen.

[00:33:08] You kind of predict. And what, what was quite funny is that, , I had people come to me and goes, you are, you scare me. You are really scary. And I'm like, why? And he goes, because how do you know? How did you know that was gonna happen? And I like, are

[00:33:22] Sarah Abramson: listening to you

[00:33:25] Nadine Anderson: because you kind of think I know exactly what's gonna happen here because I remember this and I, I, yeah, I, I've, I've experienced this resistance before and so when people are kind of like getting really stroppy with me and I'm just smiling.

[00:33:37] You know, someone goes, why are you smiling? She should be angry. And I'm like, no, because I know what's gonna happen.

[00:33:43] Sarah Abramson: And is that because you see the same types of responses and, and behaviors for similar reasons?

[00:33:49] Nadine Anderson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You very much. I mean, you'll have those goes, oh, let's do it. I'll be excited.

[00:33:55] Let's make this happen. And then they might throw goes, oh God sake, because this such hard work, this [00:34:00] I, it's not gonna, it's not gonna happen. You're like, oh, no, just keep at it. Keep at it. It's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. And then you'll have those like saying your arms crossed thinking yeah, if there's that, but it will just default to what it was before and everything will just have, be how it was.

[00:34:15] And then eventually it's like, oh, it's not going, it's not going back. You start to see that. And then of course, you know you're still gonna have some pockets, which still requires some work. So I'm not gonna lie and say that we've got it totally done and everybody is, is feeling, you know. The values are being lived there, there's still more work to be done to kind of get to a point where everybody feels that the same way.

[00:34:45] And that's kinda like what our part two is our next stage is, which is around how do we develop, support our people leaders in all of this, because very much it's about how do we [00:35:00] galvanize, galvanize, build up that kind of like movement of people who want to make a difference, which is great. But then how are you equipping the people leaders who once they actually have that culture in place, it's like.

[00:35:14] But there's some people who. And then you realise, okay, This person doesn't wanna change or they just can't. and therefore, actually this a performance management issue. It's a behavioral issue that needs to be challenged. And not everybody feels comfortable about having those types of conversations. When you've put everything in place, you've made it really clear, you know the behaviors, the competence and everything that's in.

[00:35:39] And it, that's, that's the work. that I think for me is, is gonna be a focus.

[00:35:44] Sarah Abramson: That sounds, , amazingly interesting. Have you got in your head how you might approach that yet?

[00:35:48] Nadine Anderson: Yeah. I've got some ideas. It, it's, it's gonna take a while, because, it's that kind of thing of, well. You don't wanna go ahead and do something [00:36:00] within a directorate that, may change if corporately they have an idea of what they want to do from a people perspective. So it, it definitely means collaborating across.

[00:36:14] So we have, the people and culture leads, with the directorates and corporately kind of collaborating on, on, on things. And that has definitely something that we've been talking about is that , how do we create, the tools, the support to enable, , people, leaders to be able to, , not only just obviously lead people through change, but also have those difficult types of conversations.

[00:36:38] And it's always been really, oh, just put them on a training course. But then you put 'em on a training course and they know what they need to do and then they go back and they still don't do it. So it has to be something more than that. Something I will definitely been exploring more about is around the peer coaching.

[00:36:55] How do you kind of, almost like a little kind of action learning set. How do you [00:37:00] get support people leaders to hold each other to account and, and say, well, did you do that thing you said you were gonna do? Five weeks ago. If not, why not? Oh, here's an idea. You know, I did it this way. Have you try it that way and supporting each other along, along the journey.

[00:37:16] 'cause it's that bit, it's about putting things into practice as opposed to a course.

[00:37:21] Sarah Abramson: Yes.

[00:37:22] Nadine Anderson: So it's those types of things that I'm kind of like exploring and, and again, I'm quite fortunate the housing champions, they kind of, they're from different levels of the service. So I do have team leaders right within that, that I can then say.

[00:37:37] What, what's needed, what, what would really work in order for people to take on, , skills that can enable them to do their job more effectively? Yeah.

[00:37:47] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. It, it is, it's interesting that you're focusing on that role. 'cause I think it's so. Important and, uh, such a crucial role because for most people, their manager and how their manager creates the [00:38:00] work environment for them is absolutely critical to their everyday experience, isn't it?

[00:38:05] But I think, you know, there's obviously different levels of how people approach, um, a people leadership role and, uh, how. Different people are competent at it, or,

[00:38:18] Nadine Anderson: yeah, and it's, it's always that age old thing. It's like, oh, if you're really good at your job, then you're ready to be promoted. No, all they're showing is that they're good at their job.

[00:38:27] Sarah Abramson: Yes.

[00:38:27] Nadine Anderson: Doesn't mean they're good with people.

[00:38:29] Sarah Abramson: Yes.

[00:38:30] Nadine Anderson: And so you find lots of people who have become the leaders of others, but what they know and what they always default is their specialist knowledge. And that's the stuff they know inside out. And if you ask them anything to do with that, they're happy. But when it comes to when was the last time you had one-to-ones, um, with your team members, and do you have team meetings?

[00:38:51] And why don't you have team meetings and. Did you have that challenging conversation about this behavior that happened over here that, you know, it's like they just [00:39:00] default to what they know and actually not recognizing you've moved on from that role, you've actually moved into the next position, which is you are leading those people who you were working with and, and that's, that's always been a challenge.

[00:39:12] So, and, and yeah, and people say, well, you know, just do a training program and all that type of stuff and put them on all different workshops and things, and they go on those things. But if they worked, you know, we still wouldn't have the challenges that we have. And there loads of organisations who have these robust training programs, but they're still having the same challenges.

[00:39:33] So at time you have to think, we've gotta be, we gotta do something different.

[00:39:37] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. I I, I feel like too often the training is the kind of. Senior management response to identifying a problem, Chuck training at it. And I'm not saying there isn't a place for training. There is, but like it's not the answer.

[00:39:51] Nadine Anderson: It's not the answer.

[00:39:51] Sarah Abramson: Like you change what people are doing in their every day working practices. And I think almost more it happens when people [00:40:00] recognize that they've got some discomfort around something. Whether that is, I am in avoidance mode about tackling this difficult issue with a team member or.

[00:40:07] I'm not really comfortable doing this part of my new manager role or whatever it is. Uh, they're more likely to entrench into habitual behaviors that are actually not really helping, not

[00:40:19] Nadine Anderson: helpful,

[00:40:20] Sarah Abramson: like shifting those. It's hard, but that's, that's the special sauce, isn't it? That's the bit where,

[00:40:27] Nadine Anderson: that's the bit, and, and I think for me that's the, the, that's the messy stuff that I like.

[00:40:31] Sarah Abramson: Yes.

[00:40:32] Nadine Anderson: And, what I'm finding is that, um, indirectly coaching managers around the conversations and the things they have to do and they're doing stuff that training wouldn't have got 'em to do because they have to see that it's something that they can't get around. And if they know that. The consequence of actually doing something is actually [00:41:00] going to benefit them or those around them, then they're more likely to have that conversation.

[00:41:04] Yeah. Because they know if they don't have that conversation, they'll continue to have the challenges that they have. But having support around them to help them to do that will then make them feel, okay, I can do this. So how do you create that forum that. Peer coaching environment, which allows 'em to come in and goes, you know what?

[00:41:25] I've had a crap day. I really messed up and this is what I did. And people are not judging them and recognizing that we're all, you know, we're human, and that we make mistakes and give them that kind of motivation and goes, all right, I. Go back and do it differently this time and come back and tell us how that went and be celebrated when they got it right.

[00:41:44] Sarah Abramson: Which goes right back to what you were saying about building that kind of trust in the first place. Like if you can create the environment where people are able to be vulnerable to trust that they're not gonna be judged, but it's gonna help them and it's gonna help other people if they are able to share and learn [00:42:00] from each other.

[00:42:00] It takes quite a lot, I think. You know, I, it, it sounds like from all the work that you've done, that you've got, you've got a real talent for that.

[00:42:08] Nadine Anderson: Thank you.

[00:42:09] Sarah Abramson: I've got a, I've got a slightly different question for you. Yeah. So, I'm interested in, in this work that you've done, what have you learned about yourself from those recent initiatives?

[00:42:19] Nadine Anderson: Oh, if I learned from myself about myself, I get excited about seeing people grow. , That moment when someone realises that they can lead. Or they can influence or change something they didn't think they could. , That definitely motivates me, um, where people come back and goes, remember when you said blah, blah, blah?

[00:42:41] I said, yeah, they, well, I've done it and I've done it. And, and, and you can see like, so you thinking, yes, this is great. Well done you. , So I think definitely that's what gets me motivated. It's like, I like, like when I was in the NHS and it was so funny, it wasn't till I, I left role three that they realised that I actually wasn't medical [00:43:00] because my role, they called me, I was OD consultant there, so they just assumed, oh, consultant, like medical.

[00:43:06] And I was going into theaters and I was helping to improve theater utilization and I was, I was all over the place making changes and improvements and it wasn't till I was leaving. They goes, how are you going to the council? And I'm like, that's where I came from. They're like, what?

[00:43:25] 'cause it's, I'm listening, but it's about asking the right question, which is definitely a coaching thing to do, but they have the answers and they have the solutions. And all I'm doing is getting them to find out, to find those, those, those solutions within themselves and enabling them to do it, to deliver it, to empower 'em to get on with it.

[00:43:46] . But that was the funniest bit when I actually thought I, I said no. I said I feel flattered, but No,

[00:43:50] Sarah Abramson: I feel like from what you're saying, it's, it's sort of, regardless of how technical or specialist an environment is, you're still dealing with people. Right. And [00:44:00] so Exactly. You can help them. You are the specialist and helping people identify what's going on with them and between them and in their own behavior.

[00:44:09] And, uh, it's, that, that's,

[00:44:11] Nadine Anderson: yeah.

[00:44:12] Sarah Abramson: And, and it doesn't go away just because it's. A medical environment or a, I don't know, nuclear power plant or whatever, however technical it is. People are people. Right?

[00:44:21] Nadine Anderson: People are people, and, and it's asking the right questions because then I'd be like, okay, well explain that to me.

[00:44:26] Why does that, why did you have to do it this way? And okay, but it's interesting because. You know, Dr. So and So does it that way, and they're able to do that like in 20 minutes. But when you do it, it's that much time. And I just wanted to kind of understand the difference in how you do an operation. When they do an operation and what you do.

[00:44:47] So you then you're looking at how doing that and you're like, oh, thats fascinating. And then when you are asking them questions, they're like. So what does Mr So and so do? And I goes, oh, did this one? Hmm. So kinda that creates a competitiveness and that that [00:45:00] was the fun bit because I, because I got trained not to be a quality coach.

[00:45:02] And then you would have the graphs outside and they could see like the, the, the timings of when things were done and who, and they'd be like getting, oh, okay, I need to go and have a look and see what they did when they did that operation, because how do they do it safely in this way? And, and it's that type of thing where.

[00:45:21] You are still improving things, but in a safely doing things, to kind of really get the most out of that, that, that timeframe. But it, it's, it's just, I think I'm, by nature, I'm just nosy.

[00:45:33] Sarah Abramson: It's, it's a very good, it's a very good ability. I mean, honestly, it's, it's curiosity isn't it?

[00:45:39] Nadine Anderson: It is curiosity put, it's just asking the right questions. But, but if funnily enough though of over the years of working there, I really did get to understand so much of the terminology that I can understand why they thought that I. But it was because I'm learning and observing and they're telling to say, and then I kind of learn the terminology and all that kind of stuff that's going [00:46:00] on.

[00:46:00] And then, so for me it's just like you put me in an environment that I know nothing about. And within short space of time, I get to know. 'cause I listen, I just wanna know. But why is it that way? And. What processes are getting in the way and what systems do you use and why the system are not that system.

[00:46:16] And a lot of time when you are asking those questions, they, they're thinking, well that's a point. Why are we doing, I done it that way. I dunno why we did it that way.

[00:46:23] Sarah Abramson: You know, if it strikes me as an interesting contrast with what you were talking about earlier with the housing offices or you're doing in both scenarios is that you are learning how to speak their language, and you said in the first one with the housing offices that you were doing that because you'd been on the frontline and because you'd done that role, you could really understand it. And I'm sure that that's true. But also you have been able to do that in a, a context that you didn't have the specialist background and you hadn't done the medical training, but you found a way to speak their language and to listen and to tune in and to be able to communicate with them in the way that they.

[00:46:59] Are able to [00:47:00] communicate and yeah. It feels like that's a really crucial part of it. And, and building the trust again.

[00:47:07] Nadine Anderson: Yeah. I, it is, I think it's, it all comes back to be feeling listened.

[00:47:12] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. To Yeah.

[00:47:13] Nadine Anderson: They, they, they felt heard.

[00:47:15] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:47:15] Nadine Anderson: Um, and then when they felt heard, they then saw that things changed.

[00:47:20] Sarah Abramson: Yes.

[00:47:21] Nadine Anderson: And then for them, it's like, oh, okay. We do have a voice after all.

[00:47:26] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:47:27] Nadine Anderson: And then being able to continue to have a voice and to raise concerns and to say what needs to be improved, um, over time. , And it, I think the, what was great about kind of like really understanding and listening to what was going on for them.

[00:47:48] When even times will happen, I goes, oh, that would be good for this. Well, I need to connect this person to that person because they could help with this. And so you're kind of [00:48:00] connecting as well. And you are, you are kind of speaking to other parts of the organization. You're thinking, oh, what I think you need, we could work in partnership here because if you, if you are doing this, this will help us over here.

[00:48:13] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:48:17] Nadine Anderson: The new, our Westminster Way, I am so excited about because it's about how everyone connects, and everyone impacts.

[00:48:24] Sarah Abramson: There's something in that that speaks to the value of having, um, somebody that sits across functions like different, you know, organisations typically will have sort of departments or silos or, you know, different areas of operation, but the value of having someone that can see across them and make those connections, it's.

[00:48:46] I think it can be difficult to quantify that value and to perhaps to explain it. But if you have it, it can deliver, you know, immense benefit. Because without it, everyone just kind of carries on in their happy [00:49:00] little way or unhappy little way. But if you can say, oh, you know. That connects with that over here in this business area, connects with this and you've got the same problem, come together and we can maybe solve it.

[00:49:12] You, you are adding huge value, I think.

[00:49:16] Nadine Anderson: Yeah, and, and it's important because you know the challenges like, you know, all public sector organisations, you know local authorities as well in, in particular in regards to you've gotta do more with less. And so to be, to be able to join, you know, two heads are better than one, isn't it?

[00:49:33] So, yes. You know, if I can see there's a challenge happening over there, but then I know that it's nothing happening over there. In environment communities, there's challenges gonna, adult social care and things, we are like, oh, why aren't we join our heads together because we are all serving the same residents.

[00:49:49] Sarah Abramson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:49:51] Nadine Anderson: So how do we create that holistic kind of approach to how we support our residents and ultimately the community?

[00:49:58] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:49:59] Nadine Anderson: , And I [00:50:00] think it's something that, you know, organisations need to do a hell of a lot more moving forward. , And even tapping into our partners, um, even our local businesses to say, you know is there anything that you can do and contribute, , to help us to support, , our community?

[00:50:18] Sarah Abramson: Yeah,

[00:50:18] Nadine Anderson: and that's kind links into like social value, um, that we always kind of like look to our, our partners, our, our contractors and say, what more can you do to support, help us support our residents, like apprenticeships.

[00:50:32] All of those, those different things that they can help contribute to. So, , you have to kind of be a lot, be a lot more creative

[00:50:40] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:50:40] Nadine Anderson: With things when you don't have much to go on. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the reason why, um, we were also. Super chuffed when we got highly commended.

[00:50:48] Sarah Abramson: Yes.

[00:50:48] Nadine Anderson: Congratulations for Engage Awards because it's like, we did this and we don't have any money.

[00:50:54] Sarah Abramson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what you're doing makes every, if everything works more smoothly and [00:51:00] you've spotted places where it makes sense to find an efficiency, not because you're just trying to cut everything to the bone, but because you've found a commonality that's gonna be more effective and it doesn't.

[00:51:10] Always necessarily mean you're spending less money. It could do, but it's like using it in a more smart way that actually addresses the human need. So I love this. I think you are such a brilliant example of someone who has really tuned in on so many different levels to the people, the people you're trying to, um, you know, ultimately deserve the people that you're working with.

[00:51:33] Really listening to that, like thinking about the connections that you've got, doing that in different contexts, it's, it's. Absolutely fantastic.

[00:51:41] Nadine Anderson: Oh, thanks.

[00:51:43] Sarah Abramson: Um, I wanna ask you a last question. Yeah. Um, which is a question that I ask all of our podcast guests, which is Uhhuh speaking to you as a human Nadine.

[00:51:52] What's exciting you at the moment and, and what are you looking forward to or, or what's motivating you, but are either in work or out of work, whatever you'd like to talk [00:52:00] about. Um,

[00:52:00] Nadine Anderson: I think what's exciting me is definitely is, is the, , the our Westminster way activation workshops and, um, my first one, , with my area is tomorrow.

[00:52:09] Sarah Abramson: Oh wow.

[00:52:10] Nadine Anderson: Um, so, so excited. , And the fact that I'm, um, between myself and, and, and one of my amazing colleagues. We've managed to recruit another seven or eight people who are going to facilitate, so basically these workshops are going to be delivered by staff.

[00:52:27] Sarah Abramson: Great

[00:52:28] Nadine Anderson: for staff. Which is great. I love, love it.

[00:52:31] Um, they're really excited about it. They're doing it and I think more people are more likely to go on these workshops. They can see their own colleagues and people that they work with delivering them, which is great. So I'm excited about about that. The other thing I'm excited about is I finally booked one of my bucket list holidays and I'm going, gonna Thailand next February.

[00:52:49] Sarah Abramson: I'm so jealous.

[00:52:52] Nadine Anderson: I can't wait. Um, so I'm definitely excited about, about, about that.

[00:52:57] Sarah Abramson: Oh, how lovely. I've, you put a big smile on my face. So [00:53:00] it's, so, it's all very joyful. Well, good luck with the workshop tomorrow and it's, thank you. It's been so fascinating hearing. Your stories, your insights, the, you know, the specific examples and um, and things that you are managing to achieve. And I wish you the very best of luck with taking it forward and, uh, you know, not least because it's, it's a challenging environment that you're working in.

[00:53:20] So,

[00:53:20] Nadine Anderson: yeah.

[00:53:21] Sarah Abramson: You know, huge credit to you. Thank you so much. So thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it. And um, it's been great having you on as a guest. Thank you.

[00:53:30] Nadine Anderson: Thank you so much. Thank you. Take care.

[00:53:32] Sarah Abramson: Well, I hope everyone has, uh, enjoyed listening to, to this podcast as much as I have. I think it's been fantastic hearing from Nadine, so please do like, share and subscribe to the podcast and bye for [00:54:00] now.