Charlotte Bolton on helping people through change

[00:00:00] Sarah Abramson: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organisations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me in hearing from our brilliant guests.

[00:00:27] In this episode, I'm joined by Charlotte Bolton, who is a learning, development and culture consultant and coach. I heard Charlotte speaking at the World of Learning Conference and was really taken with her energetic presentation on how she delivered a transformative change program. In her previous role leading the global learning and development agenda at Hubexo , she took a clear human first approach, drawing on her coaching skills like active listening, building trust.

[00:00:54] Influencing decision makers to land change more effectively. So I really want to invite Charlotte onto the [00:01:00] podcast to share some of those insights that I think are really useful for all of us. It all comes down to human relationships, uh, at the end of everything. So welcome to the podcast, Charlotte.

[00:01:09] Charlotte Bolton: Hello. Thank you so much for having me. So happy to be here and thanks for that lovely intro. Great to have you joining us. Thank you.

[00:01:16] Sarah Abramson: It'd be good to kick off with, uh, just. Having you talk a little bit about your background and the work that you do.

[00:01:22] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah, absolutely. So I spend most of my time working with people, essentially, so helping organisations and individuals basically develop and kind of become the best version or optimize kind of how they work and.

[00:01:36] And what, what they do sort of day to day. So anything in terms of sort of onboarding, leadership, um, development training programs, as well as one-to-one coaching, group coaching. Um, understanding the real challenges that people face day to day. And I think if I were to summarize it, just asking good questions, asking thoughtful questions, important questions to help people explore [00:02:00] and get into the bones of, um, why they are the way they are and how they do things.

[00:02:05] Sarah Abramson: That's fantastic. It's such an interesting area, isn't it? I mean, humans are endlessly fascinating, right? Yes, completely. So you kind of got into a role working on change and pretty broad change, transformative change, and I think quite a lot of cultural change. You, you dealt with mergers and, um, different organisations coming together.

[00:02:25] It'd be great to hear your perspective in terms of people and what you experienced with that kind of discomfort that people experience around change and. How you think about helping to engage, motivate, and support people through change?

[00:02:41] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah, I think there's, there's two pieces to it. There's the, um, the piece that is the organisation and the colleagues and the team's responsibility.

[00:02:50] And then there's also the piece that is the individual's responsibility. And I think they can kind of merge, overlap, but that does need to be the two, the kind of separation between the [00:03:00] two, I think. On the organisation side, you know what's key is at a macro level, communication, clear, um, awareness of what, what is going on, and being able to articulate that in a way that motivates people, um, makes people feel as though they're being included and considered, you know, role modeling from leadership.

[00:03:19] This is what we expect, and being really clear about that and not kind of communicating it in ambiguous, kind of flowery terms, but really. Uh, getting into the nitty gritty, what does this mean for my role day to day? What is expected of me? How am I expected to show up? So I would say on, on the macro level, tho those things are super important closer to the ground.

[00:03:40] I think what's key when it comes to supporting people through change is making sure they're safety. That happens in the small kind of micro moments that people spend with their colleagues, with their managers, with people on their teams. Do they feel safe to speak up? Do they feel safe to take risks? Do they feel safe to be in the uncertainty of [00:04:00] change?

[00:04:00] And that's sort of where the, the piece that is the individual's kind of part comes into it. And, and I'll come onto that, but making sure that there really is a culture that is intentionally created day to day around. People are, are safe and they are supported and kind of, um, held throughout this journey.

[00:04:20] I think alongside that, you know, when we go through change or when we're in the unknown, it can be really deregulating and um, unsettling for people. And we can see, especially on kind of large scale change, people's nervous system reactions coming in. Usually you have a kind of default. Fight, flight, freeze, or fawn when it comes to change in terms of how people react.

[00:04:42] And I think in organisations you get a lot of, um, freezes. They sort of don't know what to do. You also get the kind of, you see all of them. You get the fighters, the people that challenge everything, that will literally push back every day and they don't wanna get on board at all. You'll get some people that will fawn that can't do enough for people.[00:05:00]

[00:05:00] So it's about, I think on the individual side it's about having awareness. How am I feeling in this change in terms of the discomfort? What do I need and can I kind of hold myself and be okay with, with. Feeling uncertain and not knowing what's gonna go on. Am I aware of maybe how I react, um, what my kind of nervous system default might be?

[00:05:19] Um, and how can I just bring in more choice and intentionality with how I show up day to day? And the key to all of that is, is simply just being aware and, and knowing yourself and learning about yourself and talking about these things. That's

[00:05:31] Sarah Abramson: really interesting.

[00:05:32] With those four

[00:05:33] F's, they're flight, fight, freeze, and fawn.

[00:05:36] And so are those things that we could all. Be at different times or do we have kind of, do different people have a tendency to be one or the other? How, how do you, how do you know, how do you see it in yourself and how do you see it? I mean, not you personally, but like how with teammates might you, might you see that happening?

[00:05:54] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah. It's so interesting because I ran a lot of workshops as, um, sort of. Throughout [00:06:00] change where people would, and where we would talk about these things and kind of where people would fall into them. And it was so interesting because often at home people might default into fight, you know, with their partner or with their kids or with their family, but at work they may be more fawn and they, you know, that was so, for some people they were like, oh, that's so interesting.

[00:06:17] What's that about? Like, why do I sort of react in, in different ways in these different environments? So it completely, completely depends. For some people, maybe your default is always, um, you, you're more fight for other people. Maybe you are more of a fauna. I think for me personally, um, at work I can definitely fall into the fawn and then in my personal life can be a little bit more of a, um, a fighter.

[00:06:38] Um, but it just depends and I think that. The way that you can identify it is just, uh, reflection, you know, pausing awareness. You can Google and go online, find out what are some of the key characteristics of some of these things, of some of these nervous system reactions are, and then stop and think, you know, where do, where do I see myself?

[00:06:56] You can also get feedback from the people around you, your, your [00:07:00] colleagues, your families, um, your friends to, to just understand yourself a little better. And from that point, you can make. Uh, kind of more conscious, um, and aware decisions that perhaps you wanna move away from that a little bit or, or towards something else.

[00:07:13] Sarah Abramson: That's great. And even just starting with that awareness of. What you're doing yourself and how you're reacting to situations and maybe why it makes it a kind of less personal in a way, doesn't it? It's like definitely, you know, it's not that I'm doing something wrong, it's that this is my reaction to the situation.

[00:07:28] Yeah.

[00:07:28] Charlotte Bolton: And I was just gonna say on that, it's so natural and it's so normal when we talk about these things. It's never to kind of shame or put people in a box. And also it's it, you know, this is just one way of understanding it. There's so many other ways of understanding it as well. So it doesn't need to be kind of pigeon holded to these reactions.

[00:07:43] But it can just be an interesting tool. But yet to your point, it's, it's so natural, it's so normal. Um, and it's just, it's there to, to help us learn about ourselves.

[00:07:53] Sarah Abramson: It's interesting, it makes me think about what you were just saying about safety and creating that safety in teams, the psychological [00:08:00] safety for people to be who they are, because in many ways, even if we're just reflecting on ourselves, it requires a bit of vulnerability to.

[00:08:07] Really analyze and think about our own behavior and our own responses, and to be honest with ourselves about times when we could have approached a conversation better and we're just kind of being defensive or whatever it is, and kind of going into that fight or flight or different modes. So yeah, there's, there's a whole safety aspect to it, isn't there?

[00:08:25] Charlotte Bolton: There's a huge safety aspect to it. And you know, in the room when we were doing these workshops on change and the different reactions we can have, it can be very confronting to kind of see this in front of you and think. Maybe I am a bit of a freezer or I am a, you know, a flight. And so having that safety to be able to explore it and accept it and, and socialize it and normalize it, is so important.

[00:08:48] And I think it, not only does it, it requires safety, but I think it also allows and facilitates more empathy because something that you can hear a lot of is when you are, you're a manager or you're a leader and you're trying to kind of [00:09:00] lead your teams through change and get them on board. The, the frustration that a lot of people feel, well, they're just not doing anything, or they're not on board, or, I don't know what they're, and there's a very little space for empathy or their experience, but when you can understand it through this lens of, you know, perhaps they are stuck in, in, in flight or freeze or whatever, it allows you to be able to adapt and tailor how you speak with them and how you interact with them and engage with them.

[00:09:24] To, you know, explore it with them. Maybe, maybe you wanna name it, maybe you want, you don't want to, or just sort of help them along the journey based on how, how they respond and react. So, for example, I, I remember we were talking about it. If you do have someone on your team who is more in kind of freeze or freeze or flight, talking about it in the change or what you need from them in kind of small bite-sized chunks, starting off with this little things at once, not overwhelming them.

[00:09:47] Offering regular support, offering regular check-in. Whereas someone who might be more of a, a thorn, you don't, you don't need to, um, check in with them as much. You can kind of leave them to it and, and you can kind of say, invite challenge from them and say, you know, it's okay to challenge, it's okay if [00:10:00] you've got questions so you can adapt how you interact.

[00:10:03] Sarah Abramson: Fantastic. Talking about that safety and that creating the safety, both the, I suppose for yourself as an individual, but for people working with a team or even at the executive level. How can we all be a bit better at creating psychological safety for ourselves and for the people that we work with?

[00:10:23] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah.

[00:10:23] I think that it's, it's not something that can happen overnight. I think it needs, what's the most important thing? I think for me, with safety and how I understand it, it's that it's consistent and we are regularly kind of reinforced in terms of our idea or our belief of what the environment means or how people behave.

[00:10:42] So. I think number one, as a leader, as a manager on a team, being consistent, yes, there's days where it's more stressful. Yes, there's days where there's lots going on, but not kind of spitting your emotion or your, your stuff on people, because that can create the opposite of safety. So being [00:11:00] regulated as a leader and being able to lead in a consistent way.

[00:11:03] I think being able to create basis for open and honest communication and saying the difficult things. I think something that is misunderstood with safety is that it needs to be kind of stroking everyone all the time and making sure no one gets offended and making sure no one, well, obviously we don't wanna offend anyone, but I mean, making sure.

[00:11:22] We're nice all the time, but it's not actually about that. It's about being honest and through honesty, radical honesty. Even if it's a bit difficult or uncomfortable sometimes, that's when real trust and safety can be created. So knowing that you're trusted to hear the hard things and be spoken about with the hard things is important.

[00:11:39] Um, and then I think listening, creating space to be listened to, understood, empathized with being seen as a human being and not just another person in an organisation. To allow that kind of human relationship on both sides to really, um, flourish and be acknowledged.

[00:11:55] Sarah Abramson: That's so true about the honesty, isn't it?

[00:11:57] Like you'd much rather [00:12:00] know what the actual situation is. Well, I certainly would than, um, think someone's just being nice to me, but actually there's something else going on that I'm not being told about or totally having a different conversation behind my back. I'd much rather have. Trust in the transparency and feel like I'm being treated like an adult when, um, yeah.

[00:12:19] Yeah. Absolutely feeds into that psychological safety.

[00:12:23] Charlotte Bolton: Absolutely. 'cause you can sense it when it's not quite there, you know, even if it's not, um, explicit, but you, you can sense it so then it can create the confusion and the, the la real lack of safety. So yeah, being honest and say, saying the hard things being treated as an adult, like you said as well.

[00:12:39] Yeah.

[00:12:39] Sarah Abramson: It seems like from what you're saying, there's quite a lot of work that leaders themselves, whether it's team leader or executive level lead that leaders need to do. On themselves to kind of create the way of thinking the habits, the sort of proactive and conscious ways of, you know, developing these things [00:13:00] that recognize and acknowledge the need for people to be able to have that safety and to.

[00:13:06] Feel like they can reflect honestly on their own roles. So in your work, how do you help leaders or sort of team level as managers to kind of create that and to, to develop it so that it it's helping everybody?

[00:13:21] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah. I think at the most basic level it's about awareness and tools for raising self-awareness and tools for regulation as well.

[00:13:30] And I think it all works hand in hand. And I think from that foundation then can sprout the, you know, the innovation, the, the development, the transformation, the the ROI that, everything else. So I think in terms of how I work with teams, I think bringing into the room, you know, those really. Kind of fundamental and quite simple concepts around who am I as a leader?

[00:13:50] What do I need? What, how? How can I know when I am deregulated and I may need to adjust or to take, take five minutes? I think often leaders, you know, understandably, they're running [00:14:00] a hundred miles an hour and there's no second to stop and pause. So I think often with learning and development and with this kind of work with leadership, the, the medicine and the magic is actually just in the hour or the two hours or the three hours of stillness time for them, that's carved out for them to just pause and be with themselves and, and explore themselves and let it be a kind of adventure that they go on to discover, you know, things about themselves that they might not have known.

[00:14:26] Then of course, making it practical and applicable by transitioning into that. Okay, so what does this mean for me day to day, and how do I need to show up differently? So in terms of the work that I do with leaders or managers, it is along those lines around awareness and then what am I gonna do with these learnings that I've come to?

[00:14:43] Sarah Abramson: I love you've said there about creating space and having that time, and I think that that is really, really difficult. A lot of leaders, obviously, they've got a huge workload, they've got a a lot of stuff flying at them. And I, I think I about you, but I find generally now the world is very [00:15:00] noisy, I think, and I feel like we are kind of slightly under pressure to engage with that and to be part of the noise and to make sure we are not, you know, we don't have the fomo, we're not missing out, we are present on social media or making sure we're replying to things that are coming from 15 different channels and platforms all at once.

[00:15:20] And I think it can almost feel like having a bit of peace. Time is a luxury, but what you're saying is, is so valuable because actually to do everything better, taking that time ought to be one of the things that we really protect and. I don't know. I mean, how, how do you think we could all be better at kind of making that time for ourselves in a way that doesn't feel like it is a luxury?

[00:15:47] It's a, it's a vital part of how we work.

[00:15:49] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah. I think just, uh, perceiving it and really believing that it is non-negotiable and knowing through lift experience because you've experimented and done it yourself. [00:16:00] That you are able to serve and lead better when you are, when you have served and, and led yourself better?

[00:16:05] Well, I think there's an expression I've heard you can't lead others if you, if you can't lead yourself. Yeah. And I, I very much subscribe to that. To that kind of philosophy. And it doesn't need to be, um, let's be realistic with this. I'm not saying that leaders should every day, you know, three hour walk and, and yoga class and lunch break and blah, blah, blah, and all of this.

[00:16:26] Obviously we need to live in the real world and they are inundated with, you know, stuff to do and, and their own commitments and work and their own families, et cetera, et cetera. But I think finding a way to carve out, you know. 15, 20, 30 minutes a day, whatever that means for, for the individual. And it's gonna be different for everyone.

[00:16:44] There's so many things it could be of, of that real time with yourself, the pause, the taking the time out the break and knowing that when you come out of that you will be refreshed and you will have new ideas and you will have more space for, for yourself and for the people around you. And it's, it's [00:17:00] connected to, there's an idea going around at the moment around service-based leadership and servant leadership.

[00:17:05] It's that idea of, as a leader, you are a servant to your people, to your organisation, to your teams. And it's almost as if they're doing that retreat to then come out and emerge and do that service. And I think it's, it's important to give yourself that time, whether, whether you're in leader or not.

[00:17:21] Sarah Abramson: Do you think that's a habit that we kind of need to work on to make it present for ourselves?

[00:17:27] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah, definitely. I think it is a habit, um, that needs to be kind of exercised or the habit muscle needs to be yet worked out and built, and then it can become, become normal. And I think you, you know. Easy ways to do it or easier ways to do it is to do it in the flow of something that already makes sense.

[00:17:45] So, I dunno, if you get up early and you have some time to yourself, maybe an extra 15 minutes, and you mark that as, as a moment, this is my time for myself. Or you know, always having 30 minutes in the day of no meetings where you, you know, to go and do something. But yeah, it definitely is a [00:18:00] habit and it's something that needs to be.

[00:18:02] Practiced again and again, not only for it to stick, but also to really see that this works or this feels good for me, and to learn from it and adjust to see, you know, how it can best serve them.

[00:18:13] Sarah Abramson: I really like that and I think instilling a habit, it's much easier if you. Can find a way to build it into things that are already there.

[00:18:21] And it's kind of, it reminds me of, I've got a bit of a mantra with marketing, which is just put stuff where people already are. If you want 'em to see it, don't ask them to go. And it's really relevant for L&D, like don't ask people to go to a whole new platform, a whole new way of doing things because they probably won't.

[00:18:35] So, but if you put stuff where people already are in a way that's. Probably bitesize or easy to get hold of or just fits how they're already working rather than feeling like a massive new thing.

[00:18:46] Charlotte Bolton: None of us have time for massive new things. No, no, exactly. Don't make it feel overwhelming. It also makes me think of that book, um, atomic Habits when he talks about in there habits stacking.

[00:18:59] So if [00:19:00] you already, uh, I think there was a bit in the book where it says like, if you are making your coffee. While you're waiting for the kettle to boil, you know, doing 10 press ups. And, you know, it doesn't need to be that for, for this, but it's the idea of you're already in this habit. So in, embed something else in there, stack something else in and it makes it a little bit more doable.

[00:19:18] That's brilliant.

[00:19:19] Sarah Abramson: I, it kind of makes me want to link as well to a question that I've got for you about, about transformative change. So big stuff where we do need to bring people along with something. And I know you worked on a huge project at Hubexo that was, you know, really transformative. I'd just like to hear from you about the sort of barriers that you, that you see with helping people through change, and I'm, I'm wondering if what we're talking about here is one of the ways that you help people to overcome those types of barriers.

[00:19:47] Are there typical barriers that you think always arise during, you know, trying to, trying to navigate through, let's say rolling out a new system or something that's that kind of sizable [00:20:00] thing that we all need, everybody needs to do differently. But there's gonna be some resistance to it. How do you see that unfolding and, and what can help?

[00:20:08] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah. No, it's a good question. I think in terms of resistance, it is a very common thing, especially with something like, you know, a new system or something where you need to learn to do something new or you need to, you've, you've done something one way for years and years and years and then needs to change or, or whatever.

[00:20:24] Needing to adapt or learn or upskill. I sometimes relate that to, um, and it's a concept I've learned about recently, but I love eating the frog. Oh yeah. Just doing the hard thing. Yes. Yeah. And you know. In my time of sort of rolling out or implementing different learning management systems and needing to get stakeholders on board to, you know, this is how you use it and this is how you do it.

[00:20:45] And you can give them the most intuitive, easy to follow system ever, but they still don't want to eat the frog of, of doing the training or attending the session to learn how to do it. Do you know what I mean? 'cause it can just feel like a lot and it's normal and natural because it's, you know, you're not used to it.

[00:20:59] And it can [00:21:00] feel like a, a tiring thing. So I would say on, on a really grossly simple level, eat the frog because you know, sometimes you've just gotta do these things. It's part of your day to day. But then on a deeper, more human level, often change, especially change that your resistance to it can come up and combat with your identity or your sense of self.

[00:21:19] Do you know what I mean? Not you, probably not on a literal level. People, you're not always aware of it. Like I see myself as someone that uses X system, but it's so deeply embedded in our, um. Our tissue that we're so used to doing it this way, that it's sort of like we don't know what it will be like to do it another way.

[00:21:37] And that can feel really scary and uncertain. So again, I know I keep saying it, but I think with these things it comes back to awareness. Awareness that, you know, perhaps this is what might be going on for me, or this is why, why I might be struggling with it. Can I, you know, number one, give myself some grace and be kind to myself.

[00:21:53] It's, it's really normal that I'm finding this tedious or boring or exhaustive and, and all of that. And then. [00:22:00] Decide to consciously take, take steps forward. 'cause I think often once you have that level of awareness, not many people want to just kind of stay stuck, because I think often there's no real good reason to, depending on how strongly you're attached to that old thing or that sense of identity.

[00:22:16] But in the whole, what I've experienced is people want to move forward. So sometimes just, just, yeah, being aware. It can help people get unstuck.

[00:22:27] Sarah Abramson: Yeah, I like that. It feels like there's a whole kind of emotional side to it as well with, with what you're talking about there of, I suppose if someone's coming along with a new system.

[00:22:36] There's almost an implicit criticism of how you've been doing things up till now, and it's a bit like, like you were talking about earlier with the fight or flight and that sort of cutting the walls up straight away of like an emotional response.

[00:22:49] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah.

[00:22:50] Sarah Abramson: They might not recognize as being emotional because we are talking about a system or talking about something that's straightforward or you know, like a, a rollout of a business process or something like that.[00:23:00]

[00:23:01] Seemed like it straightforwardly about work and it's about tasks, but actually underneath you're having an emotional response as a human to someone saying,

[00:23:08] Charlotte Bolton: yeah,

[00:23:09] Sarah Abramson: not only have you got to change, but what you were doing before wasn't, wasn't. Good enough. We've got, we've got a better way. And it's like, oh, okay.

[00:23:16] Charlotte Bolton: Totally. Yeah. It's the question of that they, they, you know, people could consciously or or unconsciously think, what does this mean about me? Does this mean I'm not good enough? Does this mean that the way I was doing it wasn't, um, wasn't right? Are they criticizing or challenging the way I worked? Dah, dah, dah.

[00:23:32] It's very easy to personalize it, and sometimes that is what. Create some of the defensiveness or the resistance or the fight if, if you're a fighter.

[00:23:40] Sarah Abramson: Brilliant. I'd like to talk to you about leaders as well, because I know you, you, I think you talked about this when, when you did your conference presentation that I heard, but getting buy-in and influencing decision makers and that sort of C-suite level, what have you found to be really effective and maybe bringing in some of this human-centered thinking to [00:24:00] influencing decision makers at at that level?

[00:24:02] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah, you, I think what I've learned is you just must, must, must speak their language and you must align your message and your value and your delivery to their priorities, strategic priorities and making sure that they're aligned. If you have that and you are appealing to their, um, to what they're looking out for in terms of priorities, objectives, then you know, you're halfway there.

[00:24:24] I think the other part is being able to, uh, truly listen to them and what it is that they're looking to see. I think. Especially with leaders, sometimes, you know, some people can fall into the trap of wanting to prove something or wanting to say, look, I can do this and look at all these, you know, fantastic skills and experiences that I've got.

[00:24:43] But it's true of leaders. I think it's true of everyone in the world. People just wanna be listened to and understood. And I think when you take the time to. Get into the bones of their challenges, understand what it is exactly they're looking for. Get them to be specific with what that looks like, because often that bit is, is missed [00:25:00] that can, you know, totally help with, with engagement and buy-in.

[00:25:03] I think especially at senior leadership level, yes, it's about outcome and it's about alignment to what I care about or what they care about. It's also how did they make me feel? Did I feel comfortable with them? Do I feel confident that that's in hand? Are they all over it? Are they, are they understanding me?

[00:25:21] And that's, that's important. And I think that's where sort of my coaching and training and experience has sort of helped me when it's come into buy in with leadership and influence.

[00:25:30] Sarah Abramson: Interesting. Do you have advice for people who feel a bit. Stuck with their ability to influence decision making at that top level.

[00:25:38] Maybe there's personality involved or maybe there's just a bit of resistance to something that they care about. How would you go about kind of building your case?

[00:25:48] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah. I think it would, it, it comes back with to speaking their language. Mm-hmm. I think when it comes to building, building your case about something that maybe you care about or you're passionate about, it's so [00:26:00] important and it's so valid and so, so many people's work and so much, so many initiatives deserve a seat at the, on the agenda and at the table.

[00:26:06] And, you know, often they don't make it that, but with tweaks in terms of how you frame it. Making sure that the framing is around the, the expectations and the language that leadership are expecting, then it can be considered, I don't wanna say more seriously 'cause that's not the right way to put it, but it can.

[00:26:24] Maybe have more credibility or feel as though it's earning its place more. Mm-hmm. You know, in how it's received.

[00:26:30] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. I suppose it's that alignment, isn't it, of, of somebody feeling like, yeah, you are gonna help them, you're gonna make them look good and sort of be on their side for of a better way of putting it rather than this is a new thing that's going to either great with what I'm trying to achieve, or I don't really see how it fits in for me.

[00:26:47] Charlotte Bolton: Totally. Yeah. It's something I learned learn in learning and development. When you are designing a program or you're running something, you know upfront, immediately straight away, it the with them need to have in there. The what's in it for me, and if you have that [00:27:00] upfront, what's in it for me is in the, the receiver, the listener, the consumer.

[00:27:04] If you have that upfront, then it can help with getting where you want it to go. For sure. Engaging. Yeah.

[00:27:10] Sarah Abramson: Fantastic. I think you've talked as well, quite a lot about culture and. I believe that where in your previous role, you were there through a period of change in terms of merging companies and bringing different cultures together.

[00:27:24] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah.

[00:27:24] Sarah Abramson: Do you have reflections on the kind of human element of that and, and what you observed about work culture and rebuilding cultural engagement when people have been through something that feels like quite a difficult time. That sort of, yeah. Simultaneously, I suppose, acknowledges that we have these human responses that we're talking about, but also the fact that we have to crack on and we have to make things work, and we have to align with whatever strategy the business has decided is the priority.

[00:27:50] And there's that space both for listening to people and understanding what they're going through, but also ultimately that everybody needs to kind of come on board and we've gotta get everybody. [00:28:00] Pulling in the same direction, even if that is uncomfortable for a while. What were your observations on going through something where it was bringing people together like that?

[00:28:11] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah, I think it's important to, there's a couple of ways of looking at it, but number one, where you can appeal to their personal motivations. So get them excited by the change, what's in it, you know, the with them what is in it for me, and communicating that. Regularly, and it can't just be once and then it's done.

[00:28:28] It needs to be a re regular kind of drip feed of things that excite people. This is for the better. I want to be on this journey. I'm excited by this journey. And you know, I think when you go about it that way, then people who are not meant to be on the journey, like it's, it's up for them to decide that maybe this journey isn't for me.

[00:28:46] So I think that when you, you know, are able to articulate that in a way to so that you can get that engagement and that excitement from them. Then it helps for the organisation to align around this is what we expect and if, and if you're on the journey, please come along. [00:29:00] Um, I think as well, it's important for the behaviors and the actions of leadership to represent kind of what you're expecting from your colleague base.

[00:29:10] So making sure that it's, that, that role modeling from the top, um, and colleagues are seeing that day to day, every day. So it's really clear. There's this really clear signals of this is the direction of travel, this is where we're going, and this is what's expected of me. Then I think maybe not everyone will agree with the direction of travel.

[00:29:26] Maybe not everyone will be on board with the strategy straight away, but just there being real clarity and consistency and alignment around this is where we are going. And I think that will help people when kind of in taking them along for the journey because it's clear and it's been expressed and communicated in a way that's made it understood.

[00:29:44] And they also understand the reasons why we're doing this. Why it makes sense. Yeah.

[00:29:49] Sarah Abramson: There's a good point that you've made in there, which is that perhaps not everybody is going to want to come along the journey and, and that is okay actually. And [00:30:00] yeah, that is okay. It sounds tough, it sounds harsh, but at some point, if it isn't right on both sides, then, then, then that's all right.

[00:30:08] And sometimes things aren't going to fit. So it was a good, good point in there I think.

[00:30:15] Charlotte Bolton: Exactly. And it gives people the, um, the power of choice as well when they're aware of, you know, what's, what, what their picture is. People can make up their minds for themselves and that's their right as you know, as a human being and it's in better service of them and in the organisation.

[00:30:28] Sarah Abramson: Yeah.

[00:30:29] You talked as well there about leaders role modeling the behaviors and, um, that message coming from the top. Have you found ways to help leaders to. To do that really effectively and to, to set out that tone and, uh, be the voice and make sure that that comes across authentically, I suppose, but also it genuinely does.

[00:30:55] Represent what the company's trying to achieve, um, in, in a way that resonates and, [00:31:00] and lands with people.

[00:31:01] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah, I think that, uh, well two things. The first is asking them questions to get to the, the root of what it is they want to articulate in terms of their message and what they're expecting. So making sure it is very specific and very clear, and there are examples.

[00:31:16] So creating space for them to reflect on being clear about where it is they wanna go. Then I think secondly, connecting it to a shared and common language. And for some organisations like at KPMG and at haa, we had values and those values being the kind of anchor, that connection, hold everyone together.

[00:31:35] And I think when you can tie things to values, then it becomes easier to sense, make, and easier to see that we're part of this shared story.

[00:31:46] Sarah Abramson: I really like that. Obviously you've

[00:31:48] worked quite a lot in L&D. How do you think l L&D can help with all of this and help people to build the habits and behaviors that we're talking about that kind of underpin that successful change?

[00:31:58] Maybe [00:32:00] unlearning stuff as well.

[00:32:01] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah, I think it can do, it can do two things. It can provide engaging and helpful training, hands-on training that will. Enable people to upskill and do the things we're expecting them to do, enable them to do their jobs better, or do their jobs in the way that we envisage with, you know, whatever's going on, this transformation or this change.

[00:32:19] So number one, it can do that. And then number two, it can provide just space. Space to pause and reflect and consider. And I think that, you know, both of them are, are hugely helpful. One of them is obviously a lot more practical. The second is, is a little bit softer and a little bit, um. More nuanced in terms of what people will take out of it, but I think both of them is a, a really crucial and helpful when it comes to going through transformation.

[00:32:46] And I think that it's in, you know, in both of those spaces as well, the practical hands-on technical training and the, the space to, to reflect. Both of them can facilitate that unlearning of things, you know, when this isn't the way we're going, [00:33:00] we're going this way. Or, um, it's better to do it that way. So yeah, it can can address that unlearning of habits, like you said.

[00:33:06] Sarah Abramson: And when you're talking about creating space there, what might that look like? Do you mean bringing people together, workshops, that kind of thing, or is it something a bit different from that? Yeah,

[00:33:14] Charlotte Bolton: exactly. Creating space, you know, within workshops, peer to peer learning, learning from their peers, understanding each other, asking questions, learning best practices.

[00:33:23] Being asked, interesting, curious, provocative questions that makes them consider things, you know, in a way they haven't before. Reflecting on themselves, the way they work, the way they do things, and you know, having some actionable takeaways around sort of how they work. So I think. The creating space might be, if I could describe, it could be more of the how and then maybe the, the, the other, the kind of more technical hands-on stuff, whatever that looks like.

[00:33:47] E-learning workshop training is more of the, the what,

[00:33:50] Sarah Abramson: and it seems like that creating space connects really nicely to what you were talking about with the, the psychological safety. It feels like that's quite a. Tangible way that you [00:34:00] might help to nurture that psychological safety, and perhaps L&D has a role to play in making that happen, even if it's sort of in a team meeting where L&D isn't directly involved in it.

[00:34:10] Charlotte Bolton: Yeah, yeah. It, no, it definitely is it, I think it, when you have spaces like that, it allows you to role model what you're expecting or your what liking to see in the organisation in terms of that safety. Safety for questions and exploration. I think it also, yeah, allows you to kind of talk and socialize and normalize this feeling of it's safe to share, it's safe to, you know, express and consider things and learn from people.

[00:34:32] Sarah Abramson: Brilliant.

[00:34:33] I love the way that you talk and think about humans and people and behaviors and all of that. I wanna ask you, and obviously you've had some really interesting roles and now you've set up your own business and move to a new place, which is exciting. What have you learned about yourself as you've been through these different stages and, um.

[00:34:51] And grown into different roles and set things up.

[00:34:54] Charlotte Bolton: That's such a good question. What have I learned about myself? I think that the, the more I've learned, the more [00:35:00] I've worked and had kind of different roles and evolved in my career, the more I've, it's kind of reaffirmed that I love just working with people and I love, um, you know, being around people.

[00:35:10] I think it's very, um, easy and lots of people kind of have, there's that saying of I'm a people person and I don't know necessarily that I am a people person, but I just know that when it comes to my work. I love, um, it provides me with a sense of purpose to work alongside people, um, and explore, you know, with them where they're at, their challenges.

[00:35:31] I love that I can contribute to their own, uh, development and journey and exploration. And I also learned some, so much of it, you know, in terms of myself, there's almost a kind of selfish aspect to it as well in terms of what it teaches me from being around people and learning from people. So I think, yeah, the, the more I've gone throughout my career that I've had that reaffirmed, I start, I started off, uh, my working journey in audit and trained as an accountant initially.

[00:35:57] And my favorite part of that, uh, [00:36:00] role was, you know, leading audit teams and supporting audit teams as we would go out to different client sites and also going to the different client sites and adapting to different, you know, the different clients that we'd work with and getting into their challenges and what they need.

[00:36:13] And it would, it would always challenge me 'cause everyone would be so different. But I loved that side of, of the role. So yeah, I've definitely learned that. And I've also learned and continue to learn just the power of questions, asking good questions and learning, getting better into truly trying to step into someone else's experience.

[00:36:31] And it's, it's not always easy and it, and some days it's harder than others. And I think, you know. It's easy to get stuck in the noise of trying to make it about you in the sense that I'm gonna fix it, or I'm gonna step in, or I know what's best. And it's like constantly having the humility to step back and go, I actually don't know at all, and what my work is in being of service to this person, and stepping closer to what's, what's real for them.

[00:36:55] Um, so I'm, that's constantly teaching me and is, uh, challenging sometimes, [00:37:00] but

[00:37:00] Sarah Abramson: I love it. I love what you said there about asking good questions as well, because I think that is absolutely the way into those things of kind of, you know, genuinely developing that sense of curiosity and focusing on the other person rather than yourself and needing to kind of prove something.

[00:37:16] I think quite often, you know, when any of us are feeling that kind of imposter syndrome or that we ought to be more interesting or expert on something, you can't put that pressure on yourself and feel like you're not quite up to this conversation. Whereas actually going into it and proactively thinking about the other person and doing that through asking good questions is such a good way of doing it.

[00:37:40] So I am with you completely. I love it. Totally. So that leads me to asking you the last question, which is one that I ask all of our podcast guests, which is speaking to you as a human. Charlotte. What's exciting you at the moment? Yes. And what are you looking forward to and motivated about, either

[00:37:57] in or out of your work?

[00:37:59] Charlotte Bolton: [00:38:00] So I've recently moved to France, so I am currently learning French, and it's very much motivating me at the moment. It's a new challenge. I don't speak a second language. Um, so it's, it's very much a new journey to go on in terms of learning it and, and living in a new country where English isn't the first, um, sort of language.

[00:38:19] So I'm loving it. I'm loving, um, the adventure that I'm on and, and going on that journey. I'm excited to see where it ends up and I'm really looking forward to being able to speak in French 'cause it's such a beautiful language.

[00:38:31] Sarah Abramson: It really is.

[00:38:32] That's amazing. Yeah. And I'm so jealous you've moved to Paris.

[00:38:35] That's so exciting. It's such a gorgeous city and, uh, absolutely brilliant. So. Thank you so much. This has been such an interesting conversation and your focus on people behaviors is absolutely fascinating, and I think you've shared some real insights there into how to think about ourselves, how we interact with other people, but also how we create better experiences for other [00:39:00] people.

[00:39:00] And that can be for any of us to think about in any of the interactions that we have. So thank you so much for your time and your generosity in sharing those thoughts. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. It's been lovely having you joining us. Thank you.

[00:39:15] Charlotte Bolton: Thank you so much for having me. So lovely to see you, and thank you for all your lovely questions.

[00:39:20] Sarah Abramson: Thanks. Well, um, yeah, I hope

[00:39:22] everyone has enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. Uh, please do like, subscribe and share the podcast and bye for now.