Christine Armstrong on the danger of missing human connections: the real productivity gap

[00:00:00] Sarah Abramson: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organisations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me in hearing from our brilliant guests.

[00:00:24] In this episode, I'm joined by Christine Armstrong of Armstrong and Partners. Christine works with business leaders to help them understand trends in the world of work within their organisations and beyond. Through research and practical strategies. She's dynamic, insightful, and shrewd, making sense of how big trends are experienced at the human level for real people and real teams.

[00:00:47] She's a brilliant, funny speaker, and her weekly vlogs are well worth a follow. In this conversation, we explore why the drive for productivity is so often counterproductive because it focuses on rules, [00:01:00] compliance, and systems, rather than the experience of real people. We cover hybrid working and we spend time thinking about the impact of AI at the moment with some fascinating insights into how enterprise level investment seems not yet to be translating into ROI.

[00:01:17] And how confidence in the use of AI is causing some interesting changes to traditional power structures. Christine has so many valuable insights to share, and it's absolutely a joy to listen to her passion and perceptiveness. Please do like, subscribe and share the podcast, and as always, it's great to hear from you with feedback and ideas for future guests.

[00:01:46] Hi, Christine. It's such a pleasure to have you joining me on the podcast today. I've been following your Friday vlog for a while, and you bring a little ray of sunshine or something thought provoking every week, whether that's about employee [00:02:00] wellbeing, productivity, ai, or something that I'm finding joy. I just really love having something that nudges me outside of my own thought bubble each week.

[00:02:09] Um. You do lots of keynote speaking and you interview some really super interesting people as well. So honestly, it feels special and a real delight to have you as a guest on Speak to The Human Welcome.

[00:02:20] Christine Armstrong: Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

[00:02:24] Sarah Abramson: Um, great To start, if you can sort of talk a little bit about the work that you do and what led you into it.

[00:02:30] Christine Armstrong: So I am really, really nosy. I just loved poke around in people's cupboards, literally or figuratively. And when I started out my career worked in communications and I went to an ad agency and the European Head of Planning had a fight with my then boss and marched out of the building. And I was asked to temporarily run our global research projects into the big trends of the day, the green agenda, people's relationship with their phones, what was going on with 20 somethings.

[00:02:57] And so I ran these kind of international [00:03:00] Global Insight reports and we filmed people in their houses. We looked at the data, and then I would go and present them in different markets. And I loved that job. I loved gathering the information, analyzing it, presenting it, and then taking it out into the world for clients to be able to use.

[00:03:15] And so really that's kind of in different ways what I've done since. But over time, I've got really fascinated by the world of work and how we make it better. So my focus now is. You know, researching the world of work, all the big trends, all the data with lots of interviews with people in work about what's working, what's not working for them, and really presenting that and bringing it to organisations to say, look, here's what the research says.

[00:03:38] This is what you could do better try this. Like, there's so many ways we can make work better than it is now.

[00:03:44] Sarah Abramson: That's fantastic. I love that that journey started with someone marching out of a building. It's just sort of, kind of unexpected moments that like lead us to like so much more, I don't know, interesting paths than we might otherwise have, have had.

[00:03:58] So what do you [00:04:00] enjoy most about the work that you do?

[00:04:02] Christine Armstrong: Oh God, I sound so obnoxious 'cause I really genuinely love all of it. I love interviewing people and there's just nothing better. And when I say interview people, it's often, you know, a formal calls and you know, people that I've never met. But then sometimes, you know, I went for a really long dog walk with a friend of mine who's in head of HR this morning, and she spent an hour downloading what was in her head.

[00:04:20] And I would never attribute anything that she said to her, but I just learned so much about the world of work that she's in, and I just, I'm fascinated by all of it, by the pressures, the competing demands, the issues she's facing. So I'm genuinely fascinated by the content and then looking at where that sits against the data and the trends and what's going on.

[00:04:38] And then I, you know, I'm such a knob. I just love being on stage with lights and a microphone. I mean, I can't even tell you how happy that makes me, which is really embarrassing. I shouldn't tell people that. But yeah, I love sharing. I think. I'm very motivated to share insights and information. I think it's sort of a core bit of my personality to, if people, you know, are interested in something, to try and find 'em an article on it or say, oh, I saw this and, you know, it's, [00:05:00] it's just sort of my love language I think is, is information.

[00:05:03] Sarah Abramson: It's making me wonder if like 8-year-old Christine wanted to be on a stage and had like lots of fancy trust.

[00:05:09] Christine Armstrong: I wanted to be a news reader.

[00:05:10] Sarah Abramson: Did, did you?

[00:05:11] Christine Armstrong: Yeah,

[00:05:11] I did and I think I would really like that. Um, but my mom told me that only really clever people could work for the babies.

[00:05:19] Sarah Abramson: Hey, rude. Oh, well, we let our mothers tell us.

[00:05:24] Christine Armstrong: Brilliant, brilliant. But she's not, she's a seventies mother. She's a very kind of like mother. Not a puff. Your amazing darling. You can do anything, mother.

[00:05:34] Sarah Abramson: No, mine too.

[00:05:36] It's, it's nice what you were saying there about kind of combining that, combining that. Anecdotal input and the stories that you hear and the conversations that you have with the research that you're doing that probably, I imagine involves lots of kind of number crunching and reading reports and the kind of qualitative and quantitative and, and all of that.

[00:05:55] But from pulling all of those different strands together, what are the [00:06:00] main themes and kind of trends that you're hearing most about in the world of work at the moment?

[00:06:05] Christine Armstrong: So the first one I'm struggling a little bit with, 'cause I think you sort of said it in your intro. One of the things that I am really motivated by is joy and connection and finding joy.

[00:06:16] And finding joy at work. One of the things that I'm really hearing so much about at the moment is people being really frustrated by their jobs and feeling unheard and unseen, feeling that there's just too much bureaucracy, there's too much compliance, that too much training has become remote and online and you know, listening to a conversation.

[00:06:38] The other day I was at a client event and the client was speaking before I started. And saying, oh God, that new compliance training, you can only increase the speed of it to 1.75. It won't let you take it to twice the speed, and you just think, what are we doing? Why have we lost? The importance of humans at work.

[00:06:55] Why have we lost the importance of people bringing their energy and their [00:07:00] delight and their curiosity and their problem solving, and all of the things that we want people to be at work? Why do we create so many systems that crush all of those desires to do a great job? Because one of the things you learn when you interview a lot of people about their jobs and how they work is that everybody wants to do a good job.

[00:07:20] And if they're not doing a good job, there's a reason for that. They might be in the wrong job, they might have the wrong boss. They might have systems that don't work. They may have been there too long and they've got too cynical, but there's always a reason. And so that is the big theme of the moment.

[00:07:34] And, and I think the, the add-on the twist bat is that the more senior people are, the more likely they seem to be to feel that way. And I think, uh, we're doing some work now. It's called the Fall Summit around the idea that just so many people talk to are kinda like, I thought I'd get to this point in my career where I was maybe at board level, maybe I was a director.

[00:07:53] I'm really well paid. I've got a great job title. My friends and family think I have a really impressive job, but I just feel. [00:08:00] Stuck. I feel unheard. I don't think I make a difference. There must be more to life. But even also, I have huge financial responsibilities. Probably in most cases, they're the person with the biggest income in their household and they don't feel that they can change it easily.

[00:08:14] They feel that they have responsibilities and that if they do something dramatic, that would risk their whole household. So I think that's a very, very painful place for people to be.

[00:08:24] Where do you think we've gone wrong? Like what's happened that people are feeling crushed like that, and what do we need to do about it?

[00:08:31] So I think we fall into systemized thinking around what productivity looks like around rules, around compliance, around reducing risk. And I think we forget that the bigger risk potentially is actually all of these things crushing the very drive and energy of the people who we, we want to make work. And just the, you know, as a simple example, Microsoft put out some work [00:09:00] earlier in this year and they do loads of survey work, which is great, but also the great thing about Microsoft is they have access to the raw real data.

[00:09:07] And their data showed that people were on average, interrupted 275 times every day at work. So every three minutes. They're being interrupted by some ping or message, but that's only on teams products. Okay? That's only on your team's email or your team's conversations. That isn't your WhatsApp, that's not an Amazon delivery person knocking at your door.

[00:09:26] It's, you know, it's not a phone call. So we're just overwhelming ourselves with information and they're making poor decisions about what matters. We're reacting to lots of things, and I see lots of leaders trying to figure out a way through it. But as somebody from one of the big management consultants who said to me recently when I was talking to them about this, there's so many systems, everything's linked, and it feels like if you pull a string, the whole thing could unravel and you dunno where to start.

[00:09:51] So almost, we've created so much complexity. People are just losing that connection and that energy. And great leaders, I think, can [00:10:00] find it within pockets of teams, but it's very difficult to change it at an institutional, organizational level.

[00:10:06] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. I was at a conference yesterday that was about risk and compliance.

[00:10:09] All day day. Everyone was talking about systems, rules, audits, safeguards, stuff that isn't people. And I kind of found it increasingly depressing as I went through the day, and particularly when there were a couple of presentations that were clearly AI generated. I was like, what's happened? But it's, it's so interesting hearing you talking about that and I wonder if, are you seeing good examples of where.

[00:10:35] Leaders are doing things to connect better and, and what's that about? How are they doing it? Is there a sort of theme to that, that, that unites them? I

[00:10:45] think that there are great leagues. I was talking to a leader recently who said that twice in the last year he's been to a former colleague's wedding.

[00:10:51] And that the parent of. Their, their parent has done a wedding speech that mentioned how he had transformed their lives and made their lives better. Wow. How proud he [00:11:00] was of that, but also the sort of opposite of that was how little that was recognized by the leadership of his organization that wasn't valued, that he was always being assessed on his technical skills.

[00:11:10] And so I think we see individuals who are great leaders, who have enormous loyalty from their teams. But we see lots of systems fighting those great leaders, and until we recognize and celebrate those leaders and let them do what they're able to do, I think it's really difficult to make change at an organizational level.

[00:11:27] And so I don't really see it in big organisations. I see it in small teams and I see it in smaller organisations. If I gave you the name of a big organization and I know, 'cause I've done this before and said, these guys seem to be doing a great job, I will immediately get 10 or 12 emails from people who've worked with them before or who work with them now, or whose partner works with them going, you must be joking because blah da da.

[00:11:50] So, you know, it's difficult to get it right all the time, but there are people doing great work and we have to let them do it.

[00:11:55] Yes, yes. And I like that because I think you can [00:12:00] get subcultures like little pockets. And when I've worked in bigger organisations, you definitely see those pockets. Do you think that comes down to individual people that then have a more of an influence over those pockets and, and how they.

[00:12:15] Sort of lead within something that is kind of more in their sphere of influence?

[00:12:20] Christine Armstrong: Yeah. I mean we, we've got really good research. We know what good leaders do. They solve the problems of their team. They create capacity in the team. They have a strong connection. They see people in their teams. They have that good relationship.

[00:12:31] And you see examples of that, what we, what what we see now, and I was talking to somebody at an event last week, we were analyzing this after I'd spoken, who said, you know, we've moved from a system where you had a team, where you had a, a boss or leader who you either got on with or you didn't. But this per person really loved the leader of their ex established team.

[00:12:49] But now we just reform teams on every project that we're on. That's the, that's the model we work to. So you never build those relationships. You feel you know anybody very well. We are just designed for [00:13:00] each individual project and then we disband. And a lot of people are like, what's the point in investing in those relationships?

[00:13:05] So I think we've genuinely forgotten our humanity.

[00:13:08] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. Yeah. And so much of it comes down to culture, doesn't it? You know, what environment are we existing in at work? It really matters. It's not just, well, it shouldn't just be about going and getting your paycheck. It's about being a real human and.

[00:13:24] Christine Armstrong: Well, one of the big factors of whether people enjoy their job, whether they think they're doing a good job, is their ability to deliver for whoever they think their customer is.

[00:13:32] So if you think about it at a really simple level, I dunno if you do run the check-in desk at a hotel and people arrive and the rooms are ready and they're keen and there's a cup of coffee waiting for them, and everybody comes in and smiles and there's delight to be here, you're gonna feel you have a much better job than if you're on a front desk.

[00:13:46] None of the rooms are ready. There's hotel looks shabby. People come in and they're grumbling and there's nothing to offer them to eat or drink. And so actually I think, you know, going back to this humanity point, as an organization, we have to really focus on, it's the old model. [00:14:00] I think I was probably taught it in, I dunno, 1990.

[00:14:02] You know, if we can create a happy environment where our staff are connected, where they can do a good job, then we can do good business. But so often we let the clutter of modern workplaces, the over communication, the over bureaucracy, the over compliance, the over risk management gets in the way.

[00:14:18] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. Do you think that's, I mean, are leaders nervous?

[00:14:20] Are they worried about getting things wrong? Is that what it's coming down to or is it over complexity? What

[00:14:26] Christine Armstrong: they are worried about it? I think they're worried about making a mistake. They're worried about change coming back on them. They tend to be short term in their jobs as we know, and very often they've grown up in those organisations.

[00:14:36] So all of it is so normal that they can't even really see it anymore. It just is how business is done. And also it's incredibly difficult to change. I mean, I interviewed somebody recently who had moved to a six hour working day. Pre COVID and working for management consultancy in Germany. Gonna remember his name in a second.

[00:14:55] We're having a bit of a mind blank. I'll send it to you at the end. And he basically [00:15:00] started this sort of five, six hour working day where you go in, you have no phone, you just totally focus on doing your job. You start at nine, you finish at two, might have been one or two. And you don't take calls, you just get on with stuff, and you do emails right at the beginning and end of the day and everything is scheduled.

[00:15:15] Said it worked really brilliantly. It was great for people who had kids to pick up from school. It was great for people who wanted to do other things, sports people or people who just wanted to work that way. And it made them more competitive in the market 'cause people wanted to work like that. But as soon as COVID came along and people working from home is so, I've just never been able to get it managed again.

[00:15:32] And even in a re, this is about a 45 person agency, I just can't get it and my hands around it again, I can't work out how to do it. So I think it is really hard to get control of this. I was talking to a group of CFOs last week, a massive government organization, massive. And they are CFOs with the most enormous budgets that you can possibly picture, and they feel they have almost no control ever really in their teams.

[00:15:57] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. Oh, that's scary. [00:16:00]

[00:16:00] Christine Armstrong: It is.

[00:16:00] Sarah Abramson: It's, it's interesting that you touched on COVID there as well, because, I mean, do you think things have changed substantially in the hybrid world, the remote working? Increase is that is, how much of a factor is that? And again, have you seen examples of kind of overcoming some of the.

[00:16:18] Barriers that that can create and still doing it well.

[00:16:21] Christine Armstrong: So what we know about hybrid is that people always ask for flexibility. So if you ask people what they want, 90 ish percent will say, it varies different surveys. But 90 ish percent would say, um, I want to work flexibly. And then you question, what does flexibility mean to you?

[00:16:35] And for most people it means reasonable adjustment. It means if I've got something on, I can work from home. If I'm doing this, dah, dah, dah. But what people interpret that is, is that people just want to come and go as they please, which some organisations have, A lot of organisations have moved though to what I would call fixed hybrid, because what they've understood is that people really value predictability.

[00:16:57] Of habit. They want to know when they need a car, when they need a train [00:17:00] ticket, they want to know where they're going to sit. When they do go into the office, who's going to be there, why they're there. Why are they in the office if they paid their money to get on a train or drive their car and and get there.

[00:17:10] And so what we see is that productivity seems to be much more correlated. To how satisfied you are with your work and your environment and you know what you are doing than it does to geography. But there isn't a productivity dip from hybrid. Uh, people who are happy with it do really, really well.

[00:17:26] Equally, people who want to be back in the office five days a week who are happy doing that, and there are groups of them are also, you know, do really well with that. The trouble you've got with that is it's harder to get people in and a lot of people resist it and it leads to conflict and so on. So what was your original question?

[00:17:40] What's changed? I think what's changed is that we've opened up the workforce to lots of people, uh, to work in different ways, which is fantastic. I think lots of organisations have navigated a path to a model that works for them. Mm. Whatever they do, whatever their culture is, and you would expect a big American investment bank to have a different model to, you know, a British [00:18:00] retailer head office perhaps.

[00:18:01] So you would expect that difference, and that's great. I think the worrying sign is the sort of Trumpian. Backlash of this is lazy. We are not getting the work done. This isn't the right way to do it. Everybody needs to go back in. I think the reassurance you can take, certainly from the American data is that despite all of the headlines and the shouting and everybody bullying everyone back actually work at home rates haven't really changed very much for the last couple of years.

[00:18:25] So I think it's here to stay. But we will get periodic backlashes against it, and Ations have to make their own decisions and make it work for their talent pool for what they do and for the people they want to recruit in the future.

[00:18:37] Sarah Abramson: I've had enough conversations with people in different organisations who have done the same thing, but it's been received really differently by their organization.

[00:18:47] As someone that was talking to recently who had been responsible for rolling out the communication about moving to increased hybrid. I mean, frankly, abuse that she got from [00:19:00] people about it. You mean increased days in the office? Yes, sorry. Yes. More days in the office. People responded to that really, really badly.

[00:19:09] And as I'm sure that kind of thing probably breeds itself within an organization. You know, you hear one person complaining about it and you think, oh man, you know, that's the downside for me as well. Do you notice that? Do you see, do you think it people are responding differently? So the same thing in different contexts.

[00:19:26] Christine Armstrong: I think it's how verbal they are and how safe they feel to express how they really feel about it. There's some fantastically, um, amusing American data that's, I think it's about 43% of Americans said that they would rather get divorced or break up with their current partner than go back to the office for.

[00:19:40] All time once they had, oh God. So what I always say to organisations is it's not just the scale of people who want to work with flexibility, it's the depth of feeling that they have. They attach huge importance to it. So you can try and bully them. You can try and rough ride. You can try and cajole them.

[00:19:56] You can try and pay them. But actually you are [00:20:00] fundamentally going against what it is that they want, and you've got to be sure that that is worth it for you. The data would suggest on productivity terms, it isn't. It might be on brand view, that's fine, but you need to know you will get a lot of resistance, whether it's expressed openly or not.

[00:20:13] Sarah Abramson: I'm interested in how difficult it is to get a real reflection of what's going on there, what's really behind people's emotional response to something, because there's some tension in there between. Flexibility and predictability. And people want both, you know, from what you're saying. And there's a tension between us having our own home lives and the ability to exist better, have a better experience in that home life, and the need for us to connect with our colleagues as part of our lives as well.

[00:20:45] So, you know, and in both ways, we still need to be human and, and everybody kind of wants all of that. Is it, does it really come down to something deeper like. We don't feel in control of our situation and we're trying to get some control back, [00:21:00] or,

[00:21:00] Christine Armstrong: I think it's, as you say, difficult to break it all down.

[00:21:03] What I hear a lot is I like going in. When I do go in, I love seeing my colleagues. It's a great catch up with everyone. And two or three days a week is more than enough because I actually need to do some work. So I need two days at work where I can turn off all the, all the pings and the machines and actually get some work done.

[00:21:18] And lots of people say my most productive title week is on the train to and from the office. That before COVID. They definitely say it now. So this overwhelming communication I think is part of the issue, and people trying to create some boundaries. I think also the thing that people miss is that the time of work has expanded dramatically since we introduced blackberries and laptops and phones.

[00:21:40] And so COVID was the first moment where people felt, my gosh, we could actually try and get this back into a bit of a box. Because if I take the commute out, I could potentially go to a gym pass or go to a choir or do things in the evening or pick my kids up from school, god forbid, which I just couldn't do in the world of, you know, running out the door at eight and getting back at half past [00:22:00] six, and there was just no space for anything else.

[00:22:01] And then I'd still be on a conference call with China later. I'd still be approving a document. I'd still be expected to jump on a call about some crisis in another market. And so almost work took up too much time and then people have tried to reclaim that time and bosses have felt very cross about it.

[00:22:17] Sarah Abramson: Hmm.

[00:22:18] So

[00:22:18] interesting. Just changing topics a little bit. You've talked a lot recently about ai, some of your blogs, and obviously that's a massive. Massive topic. Everyone's kind of thinking about it a lot. And I think one of the interesting things that you've brought out is that around the changes to traditional power structures, which kind of relates to the, to the stuff that we're talking about really, doesn't it?

[00:22:40] I mean, how, how are you seeing that emerging and what impact do you think already AI is having on cultures within organisations and, and what that might. Look like as it further develops.

[00:22:55] Christine Armstrong: Yeah,

[00:22:55] so

[00:22:56] I think what we're seeing again and again is that [00:23:00] the more traditional leaders are struggling with ai. So if you are in your fifties and you are not a massive tech enthusiast, then quite likely if I interview you, you'll be like, yeah, I know I should be on air.

[00:23:11] I've used a bit of chat GPT privately. I know we should be doing stuff in the office. The CTO's on it, you know, we're investigating systems. Quite wary it hallucinates, not sure. Then you've often got finance teams pushing it as a way to cut costs very heavily, and you've potentially got tech teams who are very enthusiastic about the capabilities that are on offer and what might be done.

[00:23:33] How this is playing out in real life as I see it, is that there's been a huge investment in, you've got to differentiate between two different kinds of ai, okay? So enterprise level, which means all AI systems that companies are paying for and asking people to use that are compliant with their systems.

[00:23:50] And there's a really great MIT report, which came out in July, which said that 95% of investment in enterprise level AI at the moment has shown zero returns. [00:24:00] And there are lots of reasons for that. Sometimes it's because CEOs and leaders are come in saying, we're gonna introduce the system and cut our workforce by 20 or 30%.

[00:24:07] Strangely, you get quite a lot of resistance, you get quite a lot of people telling you it doesn't work very well. Quite a lot of people not using it, you know, so that sort of, if you don't take your people with you, it doesn't work very well. Other people have gone really high control and said, you can only paste in these particular set of words in order to get the output.

[00:24:23] And then people just sort of crushed and bored and don't bother. So there's all sorts of reasons. Some people don't think they're very good. You know, they try it a few times. It doesn't work for them. Some people are just not inclined to me, there's lots of people that have never been, not knowingly anyway, been on any sort of AI tool at all.

[00:24:37] So you, you got to ignore all of that. And you also have this contradiction at work where we talk about ai if it's, you know, a magic super highway to the future and everything's gonna work perfectly and you'll never have to be bothered with any admin or expenses. But meanwhile, most people I interview would say printers never work.

[00:24:54] The tech stack doesn't talk to each other. The wifi doesn't work in parts of the building. So we've got this sort of contradict at the [00:25:00] moment that the basics don't work, and we're promising all this magic in the future. But meanwhile, you've got everyone with their own devices and people do love their personal ai.

[00:25:08] And so when the enterprise level is bureaucratic or restricted, somebody at one of the big, uh, banks told me that they, it's a, it is a closed system just for that bank, but put in the wrong, put in something she shouldn't have done in terms of data. And it was terrifying. You know, they watch what you put into it, and if you break the rules, then you get reprimanded and it's really serious, even though it's, it's a walled system designed by the company.

[00:25:30] So a lot of fear with that. So what do people do? Put it into their own system and then nobody knows what's going on and that that sector is booming. That's doing really, really well. And then as to your point about power structures, well, how does that work? Well, the tech savvy, the smart, you know, people in organisations who are very often younger.

[00:25:47] May not traditionally be the people who have power in organization. Like, oh, I figured out how it could do this. We could do this, we could do that. It's not necessarily terribly controlled or well-managed, but suddenly things are happening that are working and they're not [00:26:00] kind of managed necessarily, and people are either going with them or they're not.

[00:26:03] Senior people, you know, one person I spoke to said, well, I just asked my boss for permission to do these things and they don't understand what I'm asking and I know they won't dare to say no 'cause they think they should be doing AI things, so I just do whatever I want. So this weird reversal of traditional power structures.

[00:26:18] Sarah Abramson: Yeah, definitely. And it kind of relates to what we were talking about earlier with the kind of, I guess, nervousness and fear around culture from leaders of. Yeah, that a lot of it comes from kind of wanting to maintain control. It's the same with ai, isn't it? And ironically, what you're talking about there is that the, the more strict controls are put in place around how you use ai, the more riskier it is because people want to use it.

[00:26:44] They wanna find creative ways around it. So the more likely to go and do something that's actually much riskier because it's not even. Monitored or understood or shared or, yeah.

[00:26:56] Christine Armstrong: Their leaders are not using the ai. They won't spot it in the same way that [00:27:00] somebody is using it all the time world is, they may not even notice 'cause they're not seeing the flag.

[00:27:04] So yeah, I think there's huge potential risk around that.

[00:27:08] Sarah Abramson: Do you think leaders are not using AI as much?

[00:27:10] Christine Armstrong: I know a lot, aunt. I mean, I was told by a chair of an organization last week that he had asked the CEO of a very big listed company. Uh, they were in the middle of a sort of crisis negotiation, said, can you just put that in as an outlook call?

[00:27:22] And he said, I dunno how to, and he said, the thought came into my bind. If he can't put in a teams call, then he does not know how to use ai. And he was, he had some questions he was gonna ask him about that. And I certainly speak to the leadership teams now who say, honestly, I, I, I just, the whole thing terrifies me.

[00:27:36] I just, you know, they don't want to admit it. And where they default to as an excuse is, well, it hallucinates. You can't trust it. You have to be careful. I think one of the interesting things to take away from people is that everybody thinks that they don't know enough about ai. So everybody and myself, I nearly caveated this at the beginning, so I'm not a technologist.

[00:27:52] I'm interested in the human experience and how it changes behavior, but nobody does. Nobody knows everything that there is to know 'cause it's too [00:28:00] unknowable. And so all we can do is try to keep up to speed, try to keep brief dress, try to keep up with what's possible, what the options are, and to, and to relax with that rather than constantly feeling we don't know enough to make any decisions 'cause we do have to move forward in this unknown world.

[00:28:15] Sarah Abramson: Do you think it requires a bit of humility here? Like, um. To say, actually we need to combine differently the capabilities that we have in an organization. So yes, senior leaders, people who've been on the board, whoever have an ability to ask the right question or good questions, hopefully think about strategy and actually if capability around AI or around how you might.

[00:28:43] Use technologies and what's available to you needs to come from a different place. Can we combine those things differently? Are you seeing that happening? Do you think it's possible? What might that look like?

[00:28:53] Christine Armstrong: No, I think the smart use of ai. Is to say, these are [00:29:00] our goals, this is our vision. This is what we do as an organization.

[00:29:03] What are the opportunities for the AI to help us, and how do we take our people with us so they feel supported? And how do we make sure that our customers are going to be happy? 'cause no, people don't like chat bots very much except for the very, very basic things. And so some really nice examples. You know, if, for instance, in a call center you give all of the easy calls to, um, AI to solve, and then your human team only deals with very frustrated, pissed off customers, how does that play out as a disaster?

[00:29:30] So if you can be strategic about where you're going, take people with you, I think there's loads of opportunities for things to go well, and I'm sure lots of organiz. It's very difficult for me from the outside to know which organisations are doing it that way and which aren't. I think I hear much more about the organisations that probably aren't at the moment.

[00:29:46] Versus organisations going, oh, look at what the tech could do. It could do this, it could do that. Let's try this, let's try that. Who are sort of going on journeys who are not necessarily taking people with them, and who potentially are creating friction with customers as well. So I [00:30:00] think that there is a way forward, but it's slower.

[00:30:03] It's more complicated, it's more nuanced. It's more pilot than it is magic super highway to the future. And one sort of metaphor that keeps coming to me when I'm reading case studies about AI usage and talking to people about it. There's people sort of going, Ooh, I've got a combine harvester, so maybe we should grow some wheat.

[00:30:20] You know, tech can do this and maybe we should do it, but I've got a field of wheat. What technology do I need to bring that in really efficiently and deliver it to my customers? And I think gotta get that the right way round.

[00:30:32] Sarah Abramson: Completely agree. It's finding the right tool for the challenge that you've got, isn't it?

[00:30:36] And starting as we normally would with. What's the problem? What's my challenge? What's my opportunity? How do I find the assets, resources, tools that are at my disposal, people that are at my disposal to, you know, pile on and do my best with making the most of that opportunity or solving that, that problem and, and the AI's no different, right?

[00:30:57] Christine Armstrong: Absolutely not.

[00:30:59] Sarah Abramson: So interesting. [00:31:00] There's been some research recently, I think, about productivity related to AI and actually not showing increased productivity. Are you, I think you've talked a little bit about

[00:31:11] Christine Armstrong: that. Well, Microsoft data would disagree, so they would say where they've rolled out programs in paces.

[00:31:15] I think Sainsbury's is one of their examples that people have saved an average of half an hour a day. It's hard to verify all of those things, but certainly anecdotally people don't feel that we're increasing productivity very much, which goes back to your clarity about what it is that we're trying to achieve in the first place and what it is that we're trying to cut out and, and I think the lack of greed, understanding of what the benefits are in an organization is part of the problem on productivity itself.

[00:31:42] I think where I am. It's really how do we think about productivity? Well, it's about what we can do to a great standard to deliver on our goals, and for me, it comes much more down to capturing the energy, good intention and enthusiasm of the people in your team than it does to [00:32:00] having the perfect tech solution.

[00:32:01] I mean, it's probably a combination of both. But if the tech is coming at the expense of that good intention, energy, enthusiasm, it might not be worth the price. Who knows?

[00:32:11] Sarah Abramson: And it, it comes back to the human part of it, doesn't it? It comes back to culture, it comes back to trust. There's a huge, I think there's a huge confidence element in there of.

[00:32:23] How people are using ai, whether they feel confident using it, whether they feel confident in it as as part of that picture. How do you think that of playing out

[00:32:32] Christine Armstrong: badly? I think all headlines with CEOs saying they want to cut their themes and that, you know, is sort of magical solution territory. Uh, it's feeling overblown.

[00:32:42] It's feeling too complicated. I think we need to, I think there will be a reckoning where it all readjusts. Yeah. And we get much more realistic about what AI brilliantly does, that people are delighted that it does, versus what we need to keep people doing, you know? From the very human. You [00:33:00] know when you go into a hotel, sure you can check in with a, an electronic system.

[00:33:04] And for some hotels, if you're going into a bargain hotel, in the sense city center after a work meeting, you're probably perfectly happy with that. But if you're going on a luxury holiday, you probably want to walk through the door of somebody, smile at you and say, welcome. It's lovely to see you. So really figuring out what's right for your brand and your customer and your team.

[00:33:21] Sarah Abramson: Yes, totally. There are definitely places I wouldn't want an avatar to greet me. Although there's places, it's fine because do you know what? Let's just get this done quickly and no problem. And better than someone being grumpy. There is that. I think it feels like for those of us that can remember back to the do co.com exactly like boom, it feels like there's case of that.

[00:33:44] Christine Armstrong: It really does go.

[00:33:45] Sarah Abramson: But I suppose when you are in a bubble like that, you can't see out of it. You can't see the other side and like whether. This is the same type of thing or whether we are in this and it's here to stay.

[00:33:55] Christine Armstrong: I think it's here to stay, but I think it'll be, uh, and I, uh, my general assumption [00:34:00] about life this will be tested is that it's not usually as good or as bad as you think, or fear it might be.

[00:34:06] Sarah Abramson: Yes. Yes. I think it's, yeah. And, and what I mean by here to stay isn't about the tech really. It's that hype. It's, you know, is, is this the massive, massive change whether people are expressing that as a, a hugely exciting opportunity or whether it's kind of the, the doom monger saying the world's gonna end.

[00:34:26] The, um, I'm kind of hoping that we'll get over the hype bit and start realizing that, hey, we've got a really interesting technology at our disposal and let's figure out together how we're gonna use it. Absolutely. We will. I think we will get there. Good. I like your optimism. I'm glad about that. And I, I think I'd love to get your thoughts on how we keep the human connection, how we avoid outsourcing ourselves to ai, you know, and whether that is just asking AI to.

[00:34:54] Answer a question for us rather than going to a colleague for their opinion, how do [00:35:00] we sort of carry on having the human connection whilst using tools really well?

[00:35:05] Christine Armstrong: So whenever I speak at events, I almost always try and convince the organizer to let me do something. And sometimes they do, usually they do.

[00:35:11] Occasionally they say, oh no, it's too weird. And what I do is a sort of Nancy Klein, you can look her up if you're interested, thinking partnership in a very rough and ready version where I'll just say, turn to the person next to you. And let them speak for three minutes and don't comment and don't interrupt.

[00:35:25] Just let them talk and then we'll swap over. And the most staggering things happen in the room. People who've worked together 15 years, so they've had a completely different conversation to what they've ever had before. People who've never met before say that they know they're now going to be friends.

[00:35:42] For the rest of their lives. They're just like, we are friends now. We are just friends. Um, people cry. But what really comes out, and there's lots of reasons that I do it, and I talk about, you know, the why we need to see people more and why listening matters and all the benefits of it and how to use it.

[00:35:56] But what really comes outta it is this very special [00:36:00] connection between people, the release of oxytocin, that moment of being heard, that moment of letting your brain settle. So. It's such a simple thing. It takes six minutes. I do that. I do it a much longer chunk every, every Tuesday morning, um, with somebody I do listening and he speaks for 10 or 15 minutes and then I do, and then we don't really comment and which I said we get on.

[00:36:23] It's just a way of clearing your mind and you know, just thinking about things differently. So I don't think it takes a lot of time. Or a huge amount of effort to build a connection with people. You just have to decide that you want to do it.

[00:36:37] Sarah Abramson: That's so powerful, isn't it? And I can imagine that. And just being heard without feeling judged and actually three minutes sounds so short, but it, it isn't if you're just speaking.

[00:36:52] Christine Armstrong: Would be astonished how much information people can share in three minutes. Amazing. Yeah. It's the most magical thing that I, I I, I do it in [00:37:00] rooms everywhere and I, you know, there's no secret to it. People can copy it, and yet it just has such a profound impact. And then I ask people to reflect on why, and they say, I found myself saying things I didn't know were true until I said them and, and other people saying, I really wanted to interact.

[00:37:17] But then they went in a different direction and I heard what they really thought instead of what I was interested in. So that unlocking of understanding. So I have lots of rules that I use around that. And one of them, which I was taught was, you know, a meeting hasn't started until everyone's spoken. So even if I've got 3000 people and I'm on the stage, I find a way to engage with the audience, often get 'em to hum um, their agreement or disagreement on different things just so that it's a two-way communication.

[00:37:43] Or I'll have them say something to the person next to them and then I'll ask a few people what it was. Uh, but I you just always to keep that, you know, so many people say, we do these calls and it's dead. Do we do these meetings and town halls and no one responds? Get everyone to say one thing. They don't have to say it to the whole room.

[00:37:59] They can say [00:38:00] it to two people. And then you've got a different chemistry and the humanity is back in the room.

[00:38:05] Sarah Abramson: Do you think there's something in the listening as well? So if you are not trying to think of what you are gonna say, how you're gonna respond, what your question is that the, the listening side of it is, is almost as powerful as somebody expressing themselves without.

[00:38:23] Interruption.

[00:38:24] Christine Armstrong: Absolutely. And the, the sort of technique that I've bastardized from Nancy Klein, she says she's got a great quote, which is something like the quality of our listening, uh, impacts on the quality of people's thinking. So if somebody's really listening to you, it sort of forces you to kind of really think more clearly and not just ba blah baba ba, suddenly you're in a different zone where you're really processing what's coming and going more.

[00:38:48] Consciously more carefully. If you think about that, you know, in relation to our children for instance, you know, we know instinctively as adults that you hear something and you just stop and you're like, okay, tell me what [00:39:00] happened. You know, you, you kind of get that instinct and you're quite still and you really listen and you know it's important to them.

[00:39:06] Even though it might not be to you, you don't do that often enough, maybe with colleagues.

[00:39:10] Sarah Abramson: It's true. I think the time taken to look someone in the eye and. Speak, share, or listen. It can be really short, but it's so important and it's so different and I, I love that you brought up that sort of family connection that you might have because I think so often we kind of go past each other in, in our homes, don't we?

[00:39:33] We are looking at our phone. We are making tea. We are having a quick meal together if we are lucky. Yeah. And then we're driving to wherever and. Even if you have those conversations, they can feel a bit like, yeah, yeah, yep. Just need to like get on with it. We've got 10 minutes left and we need to leave the house and you're not really interacting properly.

[00:39:51] Christine Armstrong: And I think work can be like that too. I did an event in June in um, in Barcelona Maybe? Maybe. Yeah, I can't remember. And uh, anyway, it was a sort of European [00:40:00] head office team of a company and then they asked me to go back in September and do it with the sort of main. The UK team. And so we did it in both of them.

[00:40:07] And the second one, a guy put up his hand. He said, oh, can I say something? And I was like, sure, please, you know, and he said, oh, it's, this is, um, this has transformed my marriage. And I thought, wow. Really well with my wife. But actually I realized just stopping and listening, it's been completely trans. I didn't expect that.

[00:40:21] Um, so yeah, I think you're right. It does have applications in your life as well.

[00:40:26] Sarah Abramson: It reminds me of the 36 questions to fall in love because. I, I've never done that, but I, I believe that there's, there's, you know, enough stories around it that it can be really,

[00:40:41] Christine Armstrong: I use that, I use that at work because I did an interview with somebody in an HR team.

[00:40:46] It was at Wrath Bones. They, it was wrath bones, and, um. What's the South African financing InvestTech. They were combining two teams and their HR director or somebody, their HR team, said that the two teams are very different culturally. The South African's very entrepreneurial, very [00:41:00] like direct, and the Rathbones quite British and rather, you know, quite straight talking.

[00:41:03] And they got the teams to use. Certainly the first set of the 36 questions, which are the less personal ones, you know, sort of your ideal dinner party and do you have a premonition about how you might die and things. It completely opened up different relationships. So I think also using great questions like that as well as just listening is a really great technique to have people connect differently at work.

[00:41:24] I think where organisations sometimes struggle, and something I hear a lot recently is, well, we organized a dinner, or we organized a party, or we organized an offsite, and then people didn't want to come or they didn't turn up or they came, but they were distracted and they didn't really commit. And if we don't have those relationships to start with, we don't necessarily want to then lean in to the places where they might develop.

[00:41:46] We've got to start with those relationships and we go back to our early careers. We spent all day, every day with our colleagues. And so if there was a night out, there was no way we were missing it 'cause we were in it. Right. We, we needed to be there. We'd have been gutted to miss. [00:42:00] Yes. Um, but if you are not invested in those relationships, then you don't necessarily want to go to the dinner or the offset of the party.

[00:42:07] You've got to start with those relationships and then add those events in later.

[00:42:12] Sarah Abramson: Oh, completely agree. 'cause otherwise the events can feel like it's just extra work. You've got to somehow go and be overly, you know, excited and fun. I'm, I'm a bit allergic to organize fun anyway, but I think there's something really profound in the fact that these are quite small connections.

[00:42:31] They're quite, they don't take very long. There's three minutes or there's only 36 questions for such a deep connection chemistry to happen. And there's something really profound in that, that we can connect as humans in a way that makes a meaningful difference to us as people and to our relationships at work.

[00:42:52] Without it having to involve multimillion pound, you know, change or engagement program or, I, I, I dunno. [00:43:00] It's, it's so interesting, isn't it? Yeah.

[00:43:02] Christine Armstrong: An app where you chat, track how you're feeling today or a mindfulness app to steal your mind. Yeah. And actually we are people, we want to connect with people. We are interested in people.

[00:43:12] One of the things when you do the three minutes, somebody will often say, well, I just felt I was being boring. And I always say to the person, were you bored? And they said, no, I was. Fascinated because I'm really, I'm watching someone else's worldview. How could it not be fascinating?

[00:43:28] Sarah Abramson: I love that. I love that.

[00:43:30] How do you think the focus on humans at work, whether that's kind of in the way that we're talking about, in building those relationships, whether it's around wellbeing, whether it's around inclusivity. How does it connect to something that makes a business more successful?

[00:43:48] Christine Armstrong: I think that. Something I just said instead of your question.

[00:43:55] I think that we want to work with people who we [00:44:00] are interested in, who are trying to do what we're doing. I think there is a great joy to working in teams, and I think if we can foster that collective endeavor. Then organisations do do better, teams do better. You keep people. If you look at, for instance, retention figures, retention is such a huge indicator of the success of a team.

[00:44:20] And if your retention levels are very low because people are leaving and you are losing expertise and experience and customer relationships, your business is on its way down. Versus if you've got people to invest in the company and doing a great job and the customers know them, you know. That it's gonna be a stable, thriving business.

[00:44:36] So I, I think it is really, really important. But what frustrates me, I just put out an email this morning to my newsletter saying, you know, we are doing some work on if you feel that you are in a good job, but it's, you know, you're not feeling happy. How you build your external network, how you think about what's out there for you, how you think about.

[00:44:55] Other alternative paths. Um, I, I can't, as we're speaking now, I'm [00:45:00] just watching all the emails coming back, saying, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Can I talk to you? When are you free? Please let me do a trial of this. So I just feel that the, the mismatch is, is really strong and powerful. Mm-hmm.

[00:45:12] Sarah Abramson: Mm. It's so interesting, isn't it?

[00:45:15] Are we overlooking the fact that organisations only exist because they're collections of people?

[00:45:21] Christine Armstrong: Yeah. I think we might be.

[00:45:24] Sarah Abramson: I'm ask you a completely different question about speaking at events and because I organize events and I'm really interested in the connection that's created between speaker and audience, and I'd love to ask you about what, from your point of view as a speaker, makes for a good.

[00:45:42] Sort of good experience and, um, what you've learned about communication, about connecting with an audience and, and what you've learned about yourself from speaking at events.

[00:45:51] Christine Armstrong: So, my preferred way to do an event is to speak to some of the people in the audience before I get there. And say, what is the most useful or interesting thing that I [00:46:00] could talk about?

[00:46:00] If you went away with one thing that you don't know now, what would it be? What is on your mind? And I love to go in and quite often I'll open with a series of quotes from people of what they've said and then to, by example, with the humming, I'll get people to hum whether they recognize that personally or not, to get a sense of where the room.

[00:46:17] Which gives you a couple of bits of information. A good speaker is a generous speaker. It's not for me, it's for them. This isn't my story. This isn't about how I see the world. This is about where you are right now, and for me, what the best insight research data is that might help you unlock something.

[00:46:34] And it may be a huge thing, it may be a small thing, but I'm gonna give you ideas and things that you can take away that are interesting and practical. And my goal is always that when you sit down at dinner tonight, when you, whoever you sit down with or wherever you are, maybe you could just, even on your own, you know, what is it that you think, oh God, that was interesting, that's, that's unlocked something.

[00:46:52] That's a really great, oh, I love the way that's framed. I can do something with that. So I think a good speaker knows their audience. I always, [00:47:00] if I'm speaking, try and get there for at least the, uh, session before mine, if it's a conference or event, so that I read the room. I did a offsite this week and I was the first person, but I deliberately went 45 minutes early.

[00:47:11] Oh, can I just work quietly in the room? 'cause I'm just watching to see what the vibe is, what, what their mood is, how they're feeling today, so that I can match that and make sure that it's, you know, reflecting their world. So it's generous. Uh, it is interactive from the offset. It is a two-way exchange of, of, of some sort of chemistry.

[00:47:32] I think as soon as you get people sitting back and turning off their brains like, go on, entertain me, uh, you kind of lost them. And I'm always being asked to use Slido and other apps and tools and I always say, please don't. I want them to be looking at me. 'cause I'm gonna be looking at them. And this is a, this is a magical chemistry in this room and phones are contagious.

[00:47:54] And if the most senior person in the room starts looking at the phone, they will all pick up their phones. 'cause they all think they're missing out on something. And so, [00:48:00] and I'm quite mean about it. In fact, if I see somebody on their phone, I, and, and it's, you know, workshop or a session I'll. Listen, I know that you're really busy and if you need to leave to deal with something, please feel free to leave at any point and then just come back in and get too horrified.

[00:48:12] Um, but just because, you know, there's, you can have an amazing experience in a room, you know, having a speaker, it's a great joy. It should be fascinating. It should be that the highlight of your day and you've gotta give it the space to be great.

[00:48:29] Sarah Abramson: Yeah. Well, and it relates really closely to what we were just talking about with, you know, that, that.

[00:48:34] Profound connection that you can create by having a proper listening conversation and, and you are replicating that, but as speaker with the audience and kind of creating an authentic engagement in the moment that feels different, feels spontaneous in a way that I think if there's so many speakers that pro, you know, who [00:49:00] forgivable because it's a hard craft, right?

[00:49:03] They create their slide deck and they go and say the words in front of a room of people and they're not really engaging. And you know, I, I, I sympathize because it's difficult, but I think that when you see somebody speaking in a way that you are talking about, it's a totally different type of experience and it is so much better.

[00:49:23] Do you feel like you have had to learn that and, and if so, how have you got yourself to that point? So, I've learned it by doing it really badly.

[00:49:33] Christine Armstrong: That's kind of reassuring. I'm glad I worked in an ad agency, like I loved all the research bit and then I'd go and present it and at first I was barred at it.

[00:49:40] You know, I didn't know how to tell a story. I didn't know how to use the words that people engage with. I didn't know how to get the tone right, and there is nothing more painful, nothing than doing a terrible speech. It is such an awful, awful experience. If you have to keep doing it, you will get better quickly.

[00:49:56] So the only advice I can really give people is to do it as often and [00:50:00] painfully as you can until you get better. There are things that help, and I often do, it's not really part of what I do, but I often get asked to. To talk to groups about it, and, and it forces you to kind of retrace your steps and work out what it is you've learned in a more conscious way.

[00:50:13] And things like, you know, lowering your voice as soon as you get here and you get nervous, sound, very, very, very unsure. You know, so just grounding, being really. I find using sort of the most normal language, you don't wanna get into intangible, strategic, interactive, asymmetrical, vulnerability kind of words that people can't understand.

[00:50:34] You wanna bring it into things that they can see that they understand. I also think being self-deprecating for me and not for everyone, you, you know, humor is very personal, but for me, being self-deprecating and making them laugh. It, it warms up the room. They're more generous with their attention.

[00:50:49] They're more engaged. And if you go and say, I am, you know, I'll say I'm a terrible driver. I have no interest in driving. I mean, I do it because I have to, but it's just like my brain doesn't work that way. If I had an, if I had [00:51:00] a car that drove me perfectly happy, if you say that, then when you say, do you know what I'm really good at?

[00:51:04] I'm a connect. Okay. So I'm really good at connecting people who are interested in the same things. You know that both of those things are true. Whereas often people go in and go, 10 things that I've learned about being a great leader, and you're like, Ugh. Yeah, you're not gonna tell us a single mistake you've ever made, and we're not gonna believe any of it.

[00:51:19] Sarah Abramson: Well, it's one of those counterintuitive things again, isn't it? About, you know, when you show a bit of fallibility, it makes you so much more human and it conveys so much more confidence than if you are putting on a front of being. Yep. I'm this amazing person. I have no faults at all. It's just much, much more human.

[00:51:35] It's, it's so much

[00:51:36] Christine Armstrong: better. Yeah, it, it, it is a strangely powerful thing to do, to tell people what you're terrible at, to what went wrong. So, but I do think to your original question, I. I think doing it often I is the, is the answer in finding your own sort of way of engaging. I think the only thing which I would say as somebody who book speakers and hosts a Ben is, and most, most people are, 'cause generally if you go and speak, people want you to do well.

[00:51:58] Uh, but there's such a [00:52:00] difference as speaker when you turn up and somebody says, Christine, I'm so glad you're here. Have a seat. Do you want a cup of tea? I, you know, if somebody will take your coat versus sometimes you walk into events and nobody knows who you are or where you are and nobody's got a mic and the slides haven't been bloated anywhere and you know, and there is a real difference.

[00:52:16] You kind of feel like if you want the best out speakers, just just give them a moment when they arrive. That would be my only request. Oh,

[00:52:22] Sarah Abramson: absolutely, Kim. Look me more. I can't imagine as an event organizer not treating all the speakers as a sort of. You know, special person that's coming in because they're part of helping you to create what you wanna create and you're working with them and it's.

[00:52:37] Yeah, I, I dunno. It's really important relationship as we

[00:52:39] Christine Armstrong: know. We've all done it. And so sometimes you're just, you're just not in it 'cause there's so much going on, which I totally understand my job there. To be there to be calm and supportive and help.

[00:52:48] Sarah Abramson: This has been an amazing conversation. I've enjoyed it so much.

[00:52:51] Christine, thank you so much. I wanna ask you a final question. I ask all of all of my podcast guests, which is speaking to you as a human. [00:53:00] What's exciting you at the moment? Um, what are you looking forward to or motivated about? Either in work or out of work?

[00:53:08] Christine Armstrong: So on Monday I went to a boxer size class. Have you ever Oh, it so exciting.

[00:53:13] It was boxing to disco. It was brilliant. This amazing woman called Sandra, and we had our gloves and our shield things. Punching the shit out of each other and to this, out to music. And it was the most fun that I've had for absolutely. Ages was amazing, amazing. I cannot wait to go back. That was brilliant.

[00:53:31] And the other things I'm doing, I've taken up bridge, so I'm learning Bridge, I'm preparing for my retirement. Well in advance with a a is very different. I know it's, and um, and I love my bridge club. I almost wanna sit here trying to combine them. I love Bridge. My dad loves bridge. And I just love it. And we are now in a, a national competition.

[00:53:52] There is no, there's no, there's no barrier to, wow. Anyone can be in it on disputes of charity competition, but it's still really exciting. And we've got [00:54:00] teams and I'm playing, um, been putting in a team with my bridge teacher, which is a bit of pressure 'cause I don't wanna let her down. And I just love it.

[00:54:06] I, it's such a brilliant. Turn off your brain, you can't think about anything else for two hours. You are just in it. And I find it such a great joy.

[00:54:14] Sarah Abramson: That's so cool. And what about in work? Are there things that you're

[00:54:19] Christine Armstrong: looking I'm always excited about work. I love it. I love, I think I'm doing three events in Ireland in two weeks, so, and, uh, Elaine, who I work with, who's gorgeous and amazing, uh, is based in Dublin, so I'm really excited to go to Ireland, do those events, but also really excited to go and hang out with Elaine and her family.

[00:54:35] Catch up with them. Um, we've got loads of lovely events between now and Christmas and yeah, I'm, I'm just, I'm excited to be out talking to people, meeting people and hearing all the news and I'm really excited about the work we're actually doing on, for people to support people who are finding work really hard.

[00:54:50] So that's a new bit of our work is to kind of, we've designed, um, a program for people who are unhappy at work to, I think one of the things people see. [00:55:00] That I maybe know something about is how to navigate the external world, whether it's a network, whether it's LinkedIn, whether it's being on a panel or speaking or you know, just thinking about how you appear outside of your organization.

[00:55:12] And so we've put together a little program. I feel like, I feel it's very new, I haven't really talked about yet, but we put together a little program to maybe, uh, see if people would like some help with that and yeah, initial signs that they really, really do. So fingers crossed that that will be useful to people.

[00:55:27] Fantastic.

[00:55:27] Sarah Abramson: Where would people find out about that? So

[00:55:29] Christine Armstrong: I'm posting about it on LinkedIn. Uh, you can sign up for my newsletter, which is on armstrong partners.co.uk. You can find my email there and email me or just give me a wave anywhere. I'm pretty easy to reach.

[00:55:40] Sarah Abramson: Fantastic. Thank you so much. I know you are super busy, so I am so grateful for your time.

[00:55:47] Really, really appreciate it. And honestly, it's been fun, interesting, insightful talking through all of this stuff. It's just been an absolute pleasure. So. Thank you so much. Thanks

[00:55:57] Christine Armstrong: so much for having me.

[00:55:58] Sarah Abramson: Thank you. I hope, I [00:56:00] hope all listeners have enjoyed this conversation as as much as I have. Please do like, subscribe and share and bye for now.